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Comparing American Students With Those In India & China

Hi IL,

A few weeks ago, there was an interview in "Good Morning America" where Diane Sawyer
interviewed a venture capitalist named Bob Compton. He had produced a controversial
documentary called "Two Million Minutes".

This is the time calculated during high school right from 9th grade till 12th grade.
In this documentary, there is a comparison between students from India and China to that
of America. They have chosen 6 students (2 from each country) and drawn out comparisons
with their way of life, studying, the minutes each of them spend in studying,extracurricular
activities etc.

We bought this DVD recently and also showed to my children (so that they have an idea of
the schools and educationsystem in India)

I am providing the links below

ABC News: Documentary: U.S. Students Can't Compete

Comparing American Students With Those in China and India - US News and World Report

2 MILLION MINUTES :: A DOCUMENTARY FILM ON GLOBAL EDUCATION

2 MILLION MINUTES :: A DOCUMENTARY FILM ON GLOBAL EDUCATION


Please take time to go through the links and share your thoughts here!!

I know many IL out there with kids in USA and INDIA can relate to this.

You can also check out the responses from other parents in the first link (you need to click
on the comments) . I was really amazed not only by the number of comments but by the
difference and diversity in their views/opinions/beliefs

So all ILites out there....give all that you've got and let's have a healthy and eye opening
discussion here!!!

Cheers
Krithika


India vs China, (over)simplified
Filed under: Basic Questions, China, Education, Growth, Human Capital, Infrastructure ² Nitin @ 12:02 pm
Can China build proficiency in English faster than India can
build infrastructure?
Comments (64)
64 Comments »
1. Nitin, why? China needs English (primarily) for the services sector,
India needs infrastructure (primarily) for the manufacturing sector. Two
different races there, and I don¶t see why one impacts the other.
Comment by Amit Varma ² December 9, 2005 @ 12:11 pm
2. Good point Nitin. India leads in services and lags in manufacturing,
while China leads in manufacturing and lags in services. Whichever
country wins the race has a great chance to lead both.
However, I think the hurdles in the way of India¶s manufacturing boom
are a lot greater than just the rickety infrastructure.
Comment by Gaurav ² December 9, 2005 @ 12:21 pm
3. Amit,
There is enough reason to believe that competition will encompass both
services and manufacturing.
This question does not play to each country¶s traditional strengths.
English proficiency requires the people/entrepreneural initiatives in
China, and infrastructure development government initiative in India.
Comment by Nitin ² December 9, 2005 @ 12:51 pm
4. Nitin,
The simple answer to your question : NO
The Chinese clients in India, the communists are quite powerful today
and in these very crucial years, they have been successful in stalling all
reform initiatives. The communist have also divided their labours. One
wing works in the countryside, establishing ³liberated corridors´, while
the other sits in Delhi and keeps a hawks eye on any reform initiative
that intends to break down the socialist leviathans that has so destituted
India.
Regards.
Comment by Pankaj ² December 9, 2005 @ 2:01 pm
5. Pankaj,
You mean ³Yes´?
Comment by Nitin ² December 9, 2005 @ 2:38 pm
6. i agree with amit.
moreover, if china can create a service sector large enough to sustain,
i.e. if China¶s service sector is not export oriented then it might not need
the english language. whereas India needs infrastructure.
Problem with India¶s infrastrcture in core sectors (public goods like
roads, irrigation, ports etc.) the investment has to come from
government because there is not enough incentive for private sector to
get into it. And government is looking at a very high deficit. so I dont
knot know how the investment is going to happen.
Cutting deficit and improving tax base are 2 most obvious solutions to
stimulate infrastructure investment.
Comment by ik ² December 9, 2005 @ 9:45 pm
7. Nitin,
Sorry, I stand corrected.
Thanks.
Comment by Pankaj ² December 9, 2005 @ 11:35 pm
8. A thought: India¶s services sector has grown in spite of the
infrastructure deficit, I¶m skeptical that the services sector can grow
indefinitely w/o any change in infrastructure « sort of what these guys
say..http://indianeconomy.org/2005/11/02/software-more-than-just-
an-industry/
After all, even services companies need buildings, power, water, as do
the people working there (who also need food from the agricultural
hinterland, and whose new-found love for cars is useless w/o decent
roadshttp://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/05/news/india.php)
Bangalore is often cited as a case of poor infrastructure ³pushing
down´ services growth, I think it¶s possible for the cause-effect
equation to work the other way around as well ie, the demands from the
services sector and its employees to ³pull up´ infrastructure « and for
other cities/ locations to learn from Bangalore¶s mistakes?
The 10, 000 crore question: will the ³signals´ from the
services sector lead to (some) increased focus and action on
the infrastructure front? Yes/ No?
Comment by Prashant Kothari ² December 10, 2005 @ 9:55 am
9. Guys, China is a ticking time-bomb. Learning English is the least of their
problems. They have to grapple with 900 million dissatisfied peasants
(80% of their population?). Read on. India doesn¶t have to worry too
much I guess.
³The average annual income in Shanghai, 14,800 yuan ($1,790), is seven
times as high as in rural Anhui, 2,100 yuan. In a nutshell, the annual
income of a farmer in today¶s China is only one-sixth to one-seventh that
of an urban professional ± but he pays three times as many taxes, plus a
plethora of local taxes of dubious legality. Moreover, untold millions
subsist on less than 2 yuan (24 cents) a day.´
³nequality in China is much more acute than in India. A recent study by
the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CAAS) says it is actually the
worst on the planet, barring the odd sub-Saharan African country.
China¶s ³peasant question´ is an economic, social and political crisis of
gargantuan proportions. Scholars at CAAS estimate that since the start
of Deng¶s reforms, 270 million Chinese have escaped poverty. That¶s not
enough in a nation of 1.3 billion people. The crucial question is how ³one
system, two countries´, where 400 million people advance while 900
million are left behind, can possibly co-exist. One billion peasants ±
80% of the total population ± can never be fully assimilated, no matter
the rhythm of the economic miracle. ´
[Source: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GA22Ad01.html
Get hold of the report (banned in China of course) Survey of Chinese
Peasantshttp://www.newleftreview.net/NLR26606.shtml
Information courtesy:
Vasu. http://vazutheterrible.blogspot.com/2005/12/we-need-to-
become-shangi-in-10-years.html
Comment by Suman ² December 12, 2005 @ 5:56 pm
10. A question for anybody who might have the asnwer or can lead me in the
right direction, but what is the current estimate of India¶s Gini
Coefficient?
We know that China¶s has risen to outrageously high levels, among the
highest in the world, but where does India stand? On article in the
International Herald Tribune described the urban-rural income gap in
India as narrowing, which I¶m not sure if I should believe given the
many more reports stating otherwise (though none are as convincing)
According to this article:
http://iecolumnists.expressindia.com/full_column.php?content_id=83
241
India¶s current Gini may have risen to anywhere between 37 and 42,
even though in 1999, it was a very admirable 32.5 (Wikipedia). Such a
sharp rise is exactly what happened in China, so if this turns out to be
true in India, that could very well be bad news for us as well. Perhaps
someone with a better understanding of the corrects facts and figures
can explain it.
Comment by AK ² December 13, 2005 @ 1:26 pm
11. Agree with Suman. Its not just the peasants that are dissatisfied but the
entire Chinese population seems to be dissatisfied. The Chinese
government is in a critical situation, where millions of Chinese are
withdrawing from the Chinese Communist Party.
This wave of resignations started following the publication of the ³Nine
Commentaries on the Communist Party´
See the latest on the http://www.theepochtimes.com.
Comment by Prashant ² December 16, 2005 @ 12:42 pm
12. [...] December 16, 2005 at 8:17 pm · Filed under del.icio.us The Indian
Economy Blog » Blog Archive » India vs China, (over)simplified Ca [...]
Pingback by HawkEye » links for 2005-12-16 ² December 17, 2005
@ 1:18 am
13. I think infrastructure inefficiency would be a blessing in disguise.
Imagine India that is advanced in Information science but lags in
transportation infrastructure.. I think that is beneficial for the Indian
citizens µCos that gives sufficient time to broaden the trickling of wealth
to different sections of the society.. Fast progress in Infrastructure
makes the First comers capture the whole market thereby limiting the
wealth to a very few people across the broad spectrum.. As far as
overtaking/Lagging China, this whole discussion is NONSENSE and a
waste of time« Simply ask the question why do the developed world
need to come to India/China? It simply because of market expansion«
So even if China is ahead in wealth, it or the rest of the world will always
need another market« The real question would be who will capture the
Middle East / African market.. That¶s where the real competition would
be between US / Europe / India / China and Japan«
Comment by KK ² December 23, 2005 @ 1:47 am
14. okay, India number one! just remind your india guy one thing, your
india has been committed democracy since 1946, and speak very indian
english for 40 years,so what? indians still the most poorest country in
the world! your gdp per capital even less Bhutan!
every time when i visited India, i can help but «.
Comment by lui ² January 13, 2006 @ 12:24 pm
15. ³They have to grapple with 900 million dissatisfied peasants (80% of
their population?). Read on. India doesn¶t have to worry too much I
guess.The average annual income in Shanghai, 14,800 yuan ($1,790), is
seven times as high as in rural Anhui, 2,100 yuan. ´
Don¶t you realize that 2,100 yuan is still higher than average income of
Indian peasants??
Another thing that Indians don¶t understand or cannot imagine is
China¶s high social mobility. Most of those high income people in urban
area come from rural area. Check Forbe¶s Chinese richest peeople list
and you will find out. There is no caste system in China.
Comment by R-Squared ² January 28, 2006 @ 9:48 am
16. Yes agree with above comments. Chine is far better progress than India.
So many industries are gone in to China for better prospects of her
business. So many hurdles in India to set up your business. Corruptions
is first and big one.
Comment by aces high ² February 1, 2006 @ 8:08 pm
17. epochtime«. I cant believe someone is actually citing ³the epochtime´ to
backup his argument. Anyway, Indian boy wake up, this world is very
practicle. Get something done before you boast.
² ³do a lot, talk a little´ doesn¶t hurt
Comment by zgzmaster ² February 26, 2006 @ 2:22 pm
18. All of us need to look at the big picture. English is a very minor factor
when it comes to the economy for a nation. None of the economic gaints
rose because of their English proficiency. China needs to worry about
other problems, not english proficiency. India should focus on other
issues. You should realize that there is no way service can make a large
country like india rich. The thought that serving 300 million westerners
to make 1300 million indians rich is just near sighted.
Comment by Su Li ² April 17, 2006 @ 10:53 am
19. ³Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party´
and http://www.theepochtimes.com ???
oh,my«..
such stupid(funny) things in such a normal(serious) topic«««
The service sector can never richen any country.Without a strong
industry sector, any service is only a vulnerable toy.
English is not a decive factor(even not a factor) of economy. Take a look
at Japan, Germany and France.
Come on, English is µnot¶ a advantage if a country really want to be
prosperous,but only infrastructure, education and resource are.
So, that¶s why China puts such huge money on highway, city planning
and electricity. That¶s why China buys mines in Africa and Latin
America, That¶s why China buys oils in middle-east..
Chinese need industry, but not service.As a Chinese prime minister says
³IT can not take you from home to office´ (I regard IT as service)
Comment by passby hahaxiao ² April 22, 2006 @ 4:54 am
20. despite of being an indian i¶ll bet my money on china y ? the
answers¶s a little to lenthy but simple
1. NO MAN EVER BORN CAN NAME A SINGLE NATION
(INCLUDING THE ENGLISH SPEAKING NATION¶S OF THE WORLD)
THAT DEVELOPED IT¶S ECONOMY BECAUSE OF ´ ENGLISH ´ we
can act big of so called call center¶s«.but the reality is that it¶s nothing
but call attending. remember how parents use to tease their children to
force them towards study during the time of exams ´ nahi padega to call
attender ki naukri karega ya chaprasi banega ´ we just cant hype about
our economy just because of call center¶s especially when we are being
given these job¶s because it¶s easy for them to spend in rupees compared
to dollar¶s
2. china has far more land then us that¶s rich in minerals which is an
added advantage for them over india when it comes to manufacturing
and also gives them an advantage in the field of agriculture. Besides this
if u compare china¶s population of 1300 million appro«. to 1018 million
to that of ours their density of population stands only 480 million
compared to our land mass this indirectly means even if surpass them in
³per captia´ our poverty rate would still be much much higher. it¶s
nominal gdp that count¶s and india is not even in top 20 in terms of
nominal gdp
3. if u say that china¶s economy is not stable and can fall because of
communism we dont need a reason to laugh like monkeys at ourselves
cause we deliberately fool ourselves in believing what american¶s and
british tell us«hey they lost jobs and services to us worth 136 billion
dollar¶s b¶coz of ousourcing«.do u really think this would continue like
this «.it¶s only time before u will hear them cry and protest about
this«.then u will realise that it was a drunker¶s dream about us beating
china
lol
Comment by amar ² May 27, 2006 @ 10:37 am
21. Most analyst says, we are far behind to china but very good in IT. We are
not aware of designing Chip, not developing machine like germany,
making gaint & hitech product like china. It¶s true.
The most of things we are not doing like China, It¶s our present.
Blame it on plitics, junked democratic system & limited though of our
last generation.
But things are changing very fast not visible.
Lots of people are getting good education, using computer, thinking
about future, have an idea to change thier life from traditonal to
additional.
Most of people in thier 20s & 30s says we can do, We can design a most
challenging technology, We have an idea of building product and most
important they are not waiting for revolution as our grandfather did.
Ther are ready to fire changing the sorounding, some of them allrady
started.
Think again IT, The IT sectore alone can not exhaust all the skilled
labour. Then what rest of them will do? They can not wait for sitting
ideal bcause they know how to utilise time. And new idea borns from
here, some will go to have good job some will go to start own work with
own idea.
Starting of small firm may be very small but leap will be very great in
quantity & quality. It will make deference and will have cost advantage,
technical expertise, and freedom of ideas.
If we want to be Lenevo like PC maker we don¶t need to develope
processor/Harddisk/Motherboard just need an idea how to sell these
item. Once money grows we can think developing
processor/Harddisk/Motherboard, Don¶t mind if we can do then we can
sell more vs our competetor becouse of our world¶s best market & sales
manpower.
As people think it will take decades. Forget it the things changes in these
5 years are more than the last 20 year.
Comment by Bal ² June 6, 2006 @ 6:31 pm
22. The mentality between chinese and indian are very different. The
indians talk about it all the time, about competing and comparing to
China. Meanwhile the Chinese have been comparing their situation with
Japan and the Western world. Some of you may not know that the
Chinese name for their nation literal means ³The center of the world´. It
has been called that for 3000 years. And in the Chinese people¶s mind,
only the µCENTER OF THE WORLD¶ is the rightful place for their
country. Note that this mentality has never changed even at their
darkest and poorest days.
In time, it is not the government that develops the economy. It is people
themselves. And the government¶s job is to free the productivity of the
people. When you see a nation of people with vision, drive and
education(like China), the nation will do well in the long run. It maybe
50 years or 150 years, but eventually the China will come back to the
center of the world. After all it has been the largest economically for
majority of the human history.
I have bragged too much now!!!!!!!!!
Comment by Su Li ² June 15, 2006 @ 12:24 pm
23. Hi All
I feel that eventually India will triumph since chinese people dont have
freedom, the authoritarian regime of Chinese community can do
anything, the cheap products china make is by sucking the blood of
millions of poor factory workers who have no voice and freedom, If they
speak they will be killed.
Our economy triumph naturally competing with the world? Turn over
wise we cant match you because what is happening in China is by force,
not natural.
chinese are basically silent , hard and ruthless people without much
emotions and the outlook towards life is totally materialistic.
It is a well known fact that Chinese nuclear weapons are facing USA and
Europe. Moreover the chinses economy is export depending and any
war or crisis anywhere in the world in major scale will affect the chinese
people.
I would like to call a developed nation only when it free it people and
become a true democracy and the prices of labour, services and
commodities come to natural level. Using ruthless power you can
supress people, currency and show to the world that you are best, but
CHINESE look inside and speak, are you unlucky ? I say , you are very
unlucky because you born and die and bonded people, we Indians are
not«««
Regards
PROUD INDIAN
Comment by GIJO K V ² June 27, 2006 @ 6:48 pm
24. GIJO K V,
One thing many people including you do not see is that: you scream
your praises for your µdemocracy¶ and view it as your silver bullet, while
it has very little thing to do with economic development at all. I do agree
democracy is a good thing, but only to a certain degree. When half of the
voters are not able to read, making them vote only means backwardness.
Democracy is good for societies that has material, has rulle of law and
has a educated population. (i.e. the US and Europe). Once a society
reaches that stage, then yes, DEMOCRACY! Notice that the west did not
have democracy until it is rich, and the same did Japan, South Korean,
etc.
When are you going to wake up from this dream???!!!! Democracy in
India is just a myth to make you people contempt with their current
situation. Much like nationalism in China. It is just an myth spread to
the people to make you guys happy. Trust me, Economic development
has nothing to do with whether the 500 million illiterates have the right
to vote or not. It is the educated elite that is making india better, not the
rule of democracy.
I am just sad when I see a nation of such history be deceived from the
truth and become no more than a puppy of the west.
Comment by Su Li ² June 28, 2006 @ 5:04 am
25. Hi Su Li,
You raise some thought-provoking points, some of which I can¶t help but
agree with. Indeed democracy is at its most powerful when the people
themselves are educated enough to make smart, judicious choices. In
addition, without the full rule of the law and universal education,
democratic societies such India¶s are at a strong competitive
disadvantage in terms of economic growth. And indeed, like you said,
the educated elite is the one which is powering the Indian economic
engine. China¶s government provides it much more focus and direction,
and an infrastructural edge which drives most of manufacturing
production of the west to China. (I do not, however, agree that a country
needs to be rich to be democratic. Education is important for success in
democracy but money is not as big a factor ± remember, capitalism does
not ³force´ social equity?)
So why is India even a competitor? Well, in their acutely well-thought-
out (yet not foolproof) blueprint for Chinese growth, the Chinese
governments of the late 20th century understood the tools of the post-
Industrial-Revolution era well, and focused on large scale, low costs
production taking advantage of the availability of abundant manpower
and resources. What they did not account for is the new economy ±
particularly the technology revolution of the 1990s and its effect on the
meaning of economic growth. While China (actually more Taiwan, not
actual China) was able to cash in on the hardware/chip-manufacturing
sector pretty early, the technology revolution was creating a strong
incentive for offshore development and services for the west«and more
fortuitiously than anything else, India was best placed to take advantage
of this demand.
Of course, there has been a lot of talk of English providing India a
competitive advantage here (and I personally agree with it, despite some
nationalist but un-economic claims otherwise, on this blog), but English
was not the primary factor. Europeans spoke English, Australians spoke
English, why the advantage on India? Well, it was the only country that
COMBINED the availability of cheap manpower (unlike Japan), access
to and availability of hundreds of thousands of engineers (unlike South
Korea and the other Asian tigers) AND the higher penetration of English
(big, but not the only problem with China/Korea). Smaller advantages
included a democratic worldview and hardly any negativity towards the
US and Europe. Disadvantages included poor infrastructure (getting
better, but too slow at the moment vis-a-vis China), corruption(still a
problem), and the weaker rule of the law (though, in a way better than
China, which stifles individual business growth/freedom through state-
directed policies and insular Communist law with weak property rights).
Despite movements in the past few years, this is where the situation has
remained. The Indian IT majors (TCS, Infosys and Wipro) are now
multibillion dollar corporations that employ thousands and can
command respect and (more importantly) business from US and
Europe, but the infrastructural challenges remain. Business services
(Call centers as well as legal/financial/medical/knowledge/process
outsourcing) have further greatly increased the size of this service sector
pie, enough to not allow economists as well as manufacturing-oriented
critics to pooh-pooh this sector.
Does it mean India will retain the advantages? Not necessarily ± Russia
and Phillipines and Ireland etc and several other countries are snapping
at its heels. But, if some of the challenges are overcome before the
competitive advantages are lost, India can still stay ahead and grow into
higher-margin higher-revenue generating services like product design
(perhaps back-ended with some production also) and actually take the
larger, intellectual/marketing share of that iPod instead of the lower-
margin shares of manufacturing (ala China) or support and software
design (ala current India). Where is China¶s opportunity? Well, China
will need to clean up its financal system (here, India is superior) get its
hinterland more involved and share in its economic growth (as
important for India also) and try and target only some aspects of the
services sector (not all«remember Warren Buffett who said ³if you don¶t
have a competitive advantage, don¶t compete´). In other aspects, I am in
awe of the juggernaut I know China is and is going to be, and I admire
its growth and success. It will be hard for any country to challenge
China¶s manufacturing prowess. India can learn a lot from China in
terms of efficiency, cost-leadership in manufacturing and infrastructural
design, and sometimes, I sadly confess, a nationalist fervour.
Socially, I do sense what you mean when you say that Democracy is the
opium for the Indian masses much like Nationalism is for the Chinese
masses«and I agree, almost. Except that this opium has some
advantages too, not just disadvantages. Japan and South Korea are
examples of positive nationalism, as I suspect China is, too. However,
democracy has allowed India¶s private sector as well as its entrepreneurs
to rise and shine over and above what they ever could, in a socialist
regime such as Russia or 1960-80s India ± it is not simply a ³myth´,
though it is overplayed by the media.
Two things that India and China can both capitalize on, is our
(historically) strong family fabric, as well as our cultural heritage, which
is full of philosophical as well as scientific strengths, but I am sure this is
both unclear and challenging for both countries, because it¶s advantages
need to seep in through the educational system, which for India is
undeveloped, and for China, is still based more on nationalism (insular
³center of the world´ logic rather than nationalistic pragmatism). It
remains to be seen how these countries do on these counts ± hard to say.
Also, I can see the competition-oriented conversations abounding
here«.but where are the cooperational ideas? Europe as well as US-
Canada are examples of how geographic proximity need not be a result
of negative competition. Even in Europe, competition has not met
enmity or hostile behavior but regional cooperation«there is a strong
possibility of economic cooperation for India and China to successfully
leverage their large populations and academic & cultural strengths to
succeed in the coming decades. Why are we letting the ³competition´
theories (very popular ³Chindia´ debates in the west) necessarily pitt us
against each other? Perhaps the cooperational synergies are large.
Finally, as far as the ³puppy of the west´ accusation goes, that is purely
motivated by the µnationalistic¶ fervour of these conversations than by
rationale. Whether you are in manufacturing and sell your production to
Dell or Vodafone, or whether you provide back-office support, services
and software development for Dell or Vodafone, your revenue source is
still the same: the US and Europe. That makes neither India nor China a
³puppy´. An international economy has buyers and sellers. The west is a
buyer, India sells to them just like China does. Besides, you know very
well that the British used to buy cheap raw materials from India/China,
produce in England and sell back finished goods to India in the 1800-
1900s, did that make them India or China¶s puppy? Don¶t think so.
Goods and money flow where they are needed, and this is a cornerstone
of free economies. Now, I totally understand if Chinese and Russians
find these concepts less understandable, because for so many years, they
were nowhere near being economically free (tongue-in-cheek comment,
please do not argue on this on an academic basis).
Now, I am not saying that India is, or for that matter, even the US is free
economically. But economic freedom is closely linked with political
freedom; China¶s lack of political freedom, while great for its
manufacturing and infrastructural progress, is a hindrance for its
internal intellectual and social freedoms, which have just as much of a
long-term impact on economic growth as roads/factories and SEZs do.
I¶ll sum up by saying that the road ahead has opportunities and
challenges for both India and China ± different ones, and hence, both
will have different paths. Their success in overcoming the challengings
and amplifying the advantages will determine the impact on their
economic growth. There are possibilities for selective competition and
cooperation, and there are also possibilities for developing different core
competencies. Only time will tell, what the ultimate direction of policies
and events is, even as this debate shall continue on this blog as well as in
the western media, until the next ³hot´ story comes along for them.
India and China need to keep trucking along, as there is indeed a strong
future for both countries.
Whoops. I wrote too much. I¶ll end here. For your reference, I am an
investment banker by trade, and hold dual degrees in Economics and
Computer Science. Economic and technology debates interest me
greatly and I often write ³think´-pieces on subjects of my interest. If
only my job wasn¶t as strenuous as it is, I would blog my own ideas!
Cheers!
Comment by Vishal ² July 2, 2006 @ 3:53 am
26. Dear All,
Like most indians i¶ve been fasinated with china¶s growth over the last 2
decades and am interested in observing how india and indians makes a
place for themselves in the world commity i.e. Economically, socially
and spritually.
I strongly believe English and Democracy has contributed hugely to the
development of India as a state and Indians as global citizens. To
substatiate my point you will notice indians in administrative roles as
head of state or as important state leaders right from Fuji in the pacific
to trinidad and tabago in the caribeans, with countries in SE-Asia, ME,
Africa and Europe included going across the time zone.
Secondly in the professional field be it Medical, Finance or even
academics indians make up the largest group of professionals in all of
these regions after the local community, except for SE-Asia and USA the
prescence of chinese professionals is quite rare in other regions.
On the global economic scene again Indians headed by LNM, Vedanta,
TATA¶s and the IT companies are making their prescence felt on
traditional sectors of the economy unlike most chinese entrepreuners
with global prescence mainly due to their real estate fortunes from HKG.
Being an Aircraft engineer i have seen the emphasis on clear and concise
communication in english is strongly advocated around the world and
rightly so, i am presently living in U.K. and pursuing a part-time college
degree in Air Transport management.At college i have come across
many research studies on the quality & safety in Aircraft maintenance,in
countries with non-english speaking engineers. Infact all of these studies
have been carried out on china in particular. The record of aviation
safety in Korea is well known ( Not that india has a glorious record;
better than most asian countries).The quality of indian engineering
´leaves a lot to be desired´ however it has shown remarkable
improvement when challenged with global competition. J.D. Power the
auto industry benchmarking expert claim Indian auto exports are the
best quality outside of Japan and USA, better than the chinese by far.
The reasons for indians being confident in facing challenges around the
world stems from our education in english and the fierce debates at
school due to our democratic principals . Amartya sens ´Argumentative
indian´ illustrates this well. In a totalitarian society people are
subservient and loose their voice to challenge any wrong. It took Britain
over 10years to decide on building the 5th terminal at heathrow,
however the same british administration made a decision and built the
Chep lok kok airport at HKG in less than 10years. The point i am driving
at is in democratic britain the british debated on the viability of the
project however in partnership with a totalitarian china they went ahead
and built a monster of an airport with another 2 exising huge airports
within 2 hrs drive in Shenzen and Guangdong. Once direct flights
betwen Taiwan and China are formalised HKG looses its USP and will
be underutilised with a huge overcapacity. This infrastructure just like
many other projects around China have been built without suuficient
views of all.
Personally i feel the spirit of democracy stems naturally to the indian
mind, the roots are instilled in our religion. I say this because i don¶t see
democray in its true form even in highly educated oriental societies i.e.
Singapore, Malaysia or Indonesia. There is a element of totalitarianism
in the form of restricting the entry of certain segments of the political
spectrum, right and left in these countries.
The evolution of the indian economy and politics is truly amazing.
Inspite of being exposed directly to the threats of communism and
anarchy in the 70¶s & 80¶s and fundamentalist terrorists more recently
the economy and the political arena seem to developing positively, china
has been a closed economy through most of the cold war.
I prefer airports in India to be developed progressively as per demand
and the politician to be answerable to their constituents through
elections rather than a top down I KNOW THE BEST, frog in the pond
attitude. Huge infrastructure will boost growth but not sustain it, watch
how the economies of the middle-east unfold with their huge
investments in transportation infrastructure, they are now plagued with
manpower shortages due to cost and wage inflation, india is and will be
their only source of skilled reliable labour another indiavtion of the
tangible value the Indian brings to global economy. The number of
chinese students in U.K. wishing to stay back is increasing indicating a
possible shortage looming in china in the future.
Comment by Uday pal ² July 3, 2006 @ 5:06 pm
27.Lots of things in my previous comments I said was just for provoking
people. Because I wanted to see more comments on this subject and
know more about people¶s opinons on it. So about those nationalism
comments, I did not really mean it. After all I said myself that
nationalism is a myth in china. There is a long to go for both of us. I see
an opportunity for both of us to become developed and prosporous
within this century. I think it is our responsibility to make it happen. It
is also our responsibility to gain the world¶s respect for our children, so
that they will not suffer and be colonized like our grandparents was.
However, there is one catch: We can only achieve this if we work
together instead against each other. We have much to learn from each
other. As you said, being geographically close does not turn neigbors
against each other. The super powers are the ones been turning us
against each other, and that is what they want for any powerful nation in
the world. This should not be the case between china and india.
Comment by Su Li ² July 6, 2006 @ 11:51 am
28. Hi Su li,
Authoritarianism ultimately cripples creativity. Why do we live, why do
we earn and why do we progress ? Its all for happiness.
Authoritarianism would breed discontentment and with a critical mass
will destroy quickly all that was created.
Its not a good thing. At the end of the day I dont care how much of GDP
my country earns. That doesent make me happy persay. What makes me
happy is how much do I earn ? Do I have a decent life ? Can I move to
the city and get myself a job ? Can me kids have the same opportunity ?
Tell me one thing, honestly how many poor chinese from the villages can
move to beijing and find an opportunity for themselves ? Answer zilch.
Cos, beijing, shangai have been masterminded to dazzle the western
world. Its an artificial world. Slums are frowned upon. But it is these
slums which help the poor to live and earn in a big city.
I dont hink, snazzy superhighways are any measure of progress. Its the
freedom to persue an opportunity (political, social and economical)
thats the indicator of progress. Even UN recogonises HD as a measure of
progress not purely money and definintely not collective. Lets talk of
GDP percapita in purchasing power parity terms (and not absolute
terms). Then you see India is not that bad.
I think you have got your understanding all wrong and wrapped up. We
in India have our own problems but we are honest in admitting it
seeking the best solution and are constantly grappling it.
The communist regime in china is turning a blind eye to the problems of
china. One day it will fester out. Democracy, freedom and liberty are
much more valuable than dollars.
vasu
Comment by vasu ² July 18, 2006 @ 4:38 pm
29. vasu:
You should travel to china and maybe live there for like a year. Then you
will really understand what i am talking about. Many people are too far
mislead to even talk about this topic. I lived in China for many years. I
have been living in the USA for another 10 years. I totally agree that
China has many problems to be solved. Just that your image of china
and its society is too manipulated.
just let me make sure that there are a few things I need to get it right:
1. China is still poor on average and the gap is wide. However, because of
good infrastructures and basic services, common people seem to live a
better life than the other developing countries. However, they face
poverty of a different sort, much like those in Russia in the 1990s.
2. There are a lot of web blogs in China, and a lot of comments are
criticizing the governments(certainly not as intensive as many countries
like USA). The reason foreign guys do not know it is because they do not
read Chinese. China has the largest on line population in the world.
3. Statistics show more than 100 million from rural areas travel to big
cities(such as Beijing and Shang hai) to find jobs EVERY SINGLE
YEARS. The migrant workers is one of the major labor source of China¶s
economy.
4. The communist government is very aware of the problems and are
constantly caring out meassurements and laws to solve them. And
PEOPLE support THEM. The government officials are recruited by
examinations, and the everyone can participate.
5. There is only one party in the government, the communist party. It is
just a name and virtually no one in the party believes in communism. It
has 70 million members, and democracy is usually used within the
party. If you know statistics, you will understand that 70 million is a
very good sample size for any data. Therefore, democracy is used in the
Chinese, although not in a universal way like India.
6. When I was in China during the cold war period, we were taught lies
about capitalism and the west. After the cold war, the Chinese have
dropped those lies from their education system and media. When I came
to USA, I am so surprised that the same kind of lies are being taught
here about my own country, and yet no one here has the intend to drop
it. I am surprised even more when people from India are brainwashed as
well.
Comment by Su Li ² July 19, 2006 @ 6:36 am
30. I am from China (currently in the UK) and I dont know who Su Li
is, but I would like to confirm some of his comments. My English is poor
as indicated by Nitin :-( , I am also sorry for any grammar or spelling
mistake:
1. Both India and China are still poor/developing countries, there is no
point that you looking down on my country because of the so-called
µdemocracy problem¶ and we laughing at you because of maybe one or
two problems in India. It looks like a beggar with only one penny
laughing at another one with only a piece of bread. Even America has
lots of problems. Why not respect each other and learn to share the
future?
2. There are many social/economic problems in China. We know that,
the µcommunist¶ party (in fact no one cares about whether it is still
µcommunist¶ or not) also knows that. All Chinese people are working on
the problems for a sustainable development. However, some of the
problems highlighted by our Indian friends are probably exaggerated to
some extent. I think Su Li has explained a lot and I dont need to repeat
them.
3. We are not unlucky/bonded people. For example, I think that the
current leaders of PRC are probably able to gain support from more
than half of our people. Also, I believe that many Chinese people will
disapprove radical political reform because a majority of us agree that
µlifting living standards takes the top priority¶. When the country
becomes richer/more stable, democracy will gradually/eventually be
achieved.
4. I know that India is a democratic nation and you are proud of it. I
believe most of the Chinese people know that as well and fully respect
that. I am sure China will become more and more democratic, but
before then please also give some respect to our approach that
µimproving living standards takes top priority¶. I dont think there are
many nations in the world can experience both radical political reform
and radical economic reform at the same time with no harm.
5. In fact the µdemocracy problem¶ in China is not that bad as in some of
the comments above. Anyway, go to China when you have time, to find
out by yourself whether it is actually worse or better than your
imagination. Many Chinese people are very welcoming so you will enjoy
the trip, trust me.
cheers,
Comment by L.L. ² July 20, 2006 @ 6:09 pm
31. As a Chinese who has lived in US for 10 years (in China now), I have
visited diferent Indian cities recently.
I think it¶s very hard to change Indian¶s point of view on China especially
they¶ve been brainwashed for such a long time. I know a couple of
Indians who are working in shanghai, they told me what kind of
impression on China they had BEFORE they came to China. Of course
they have a fresh, totally different view now from all aspects.
So maybe I think the only way to let a person know a real China (if he¶s
sincere to know) is to pay a trip to there and experience it, or maybe
asking a honest Indians who has been there can also help.
China is a totally differnt country now than 30 years ago, where Indian
people¶s perception of China still resides. India is developing fast now
(in many cities) but believe me, even tier-3 Chinese cities looks much
cleaner, more organized, more affluent than most Indian large cities.
Surprisingly, I found Chinese people are much opener in mindset than
Indian people.
I don¶t have any negative views on India or Indian people. I just want to
be honest and speak out the fact I have seen in my own eyes.
Comment by Guz ² August 20, 2006 @ 7:03 am
32. Lets hope our Politicians will wake up from their slumber.
http://apunkadesh.blogspot.com
Comment by Apun Ka Desh ² September 14, 2006 @ 4:29 pm
33. hi all,
as a computer graduate ,i would like to insist that wheather the china or
india rises !! it will benifit the other directly or indirectly!! for the rise of
a country ,the people contribution is must,though i must admit that
india will slowly but perfectly rise and the world will have to respect it as
the new power of this century!!
well we must now do our jobs sincerely to achieve this objectives!!
Comment by rp ² September 28, 2006 @ 7:13 pm
34. I am of Indian origin, a Singapore citizen now formerly a British
resident. We have lived in Singapore for more than 30 years. Chinese
dominate, but other races live here peacefully and the attitude
everywhere is to live and let live.
I found Chinese at all levels more able to take risks and move on with it;
Indians are less so, happier always with a job. Indian enterprise is
usually at the top. I found Chinese know the administrative trick, they
know that to reach a higher level of living standard in a short time ( we
cannot wait hundreds of years to reach the standards of Europe and
America) we must pull up our shoes, consolidate and not play games
with democratic excesses ( just another name for British/American
saxonology, they like this for that will ensure we take hundreds of years
before we reach their standards). No wonder British loved Bapuji and
not so much Vallav Bhai Patel; so India remains a µbeautiful¶ land where
people speak µfreely¶and yet its cities and infrastructure forever rotten,
result of cotton weaving economics bequathed by Bapu ; forever
threatened by Pakistan knowing Bapuji¶s India is stalled by Ahimsa (
Bapuji did not discover Ahimsa, Buddha did 2600 years ago!), and with
the British encouragement Nehru gave away Tibet to China and then got
licked and kicked by a country who were not afraid then or now, to call a
spade a spade. Whoever Mao was, a criminal no doubt, he was never as
bad to China in the end (he united the Chinese) as Gandhi ( Bapuji ) and
Nehru were to India. Whatever we are doing there today is not because
of them but despite them. Gandhi¶s legacy is µdemocratic¶ disunity
forever, so µhumane¶ yet such a disgusting insulting legacy to leave.
Westerners love Gandhi and hate Mao- no wonder of course!!
Comment by BC Ghosh ² November 4, 2006 @ 11:06 am
35. Friends,
Am looking for some literature on ´ Emerging threats to India from the
growing economy of China´..would appreciate if some of you could
kindly give me links / readily available e notes /essays..
Regards
Thomas
Comment by thomas ² November 6, 2006 @ 3:51 pm
36. Check the posts in the \´China\´ category on our blog. Some of
the links may speak to your need.
Comment by Prashant ² November 6, 2006 @ 6:02 pm
37. Can any of you provide me with comparative cost/price data of Indian vs
Chinse products?
Comment by Abhishikta ² November 20, 2006 @ 4:03 pm
38. [...] And of course, there is competition for investment and trade,
which will only intensify as China becomes proficient in the English
language and India gets its manufacturing act together. [...]
Pingback by The Acorn » One China policy ² November 24, 2006
@ 5:53 pm
39. A One China policy for India«
India will have to counter China¶s geopolitical moves, keep pace in the
quest for natural resources and engage China in trade. There is, in the
end, no simple one China policy«.
Trackback by Winds of Change.NET ² November 24, 2006 @ 6:24 pm
40. [...] Hence if economic progress is considered, India and China do
not complement (that is besides the increased efficiency which free
trade brings) each other as much as they are competitors by the virtue of
their being most populous nations. [Ref] [...]
Pingback by Signal - » Lay off the fodder, brother ! ² November 24,
2006 @ 11:17 pm
41. I like this kind of discussion honestly, Its sensible debate without having
to spitting out racist comments about each other. I think the Indians
and the Chinese should be friends , collaborate on many fields and
achieve their ultimate goal : lifting people out of poverty
Kind regards
Comment by tony ² December 4, 2006 @ 2:39 am
42. Hi everyone,
I am from Andhra, India. I agree with all and I mean All the comments
posted here. China, I have to agree you are better in growing. I looked at
the comparisons. Airports, cities, transportations, etc, all are
outstanding in China. In India, we have our own world that we like to
live in. The only difference is comming from rich people in India and
everyone has to agree with that. Most of the rich is always poverty and
that might change, but in today¶s society, it will never change. So i know
i am blabbering things, but I feel that people should hear this too. I am a
proud desi and am proud to be one. Jai Hind.
Please don¶t see my comments as offensive. If you do, please leave a
comment so I won¶t do it again.
Comment by Pradyu ² December 19, 2006 @ 7:18 am
43. Comparing China With India by Numbers (version October 2006)
Check out the latest comparison data
http://newschecker.blogspot.com/2006/10/comparing-china-with-
india-by-numbers_23.html
Comment by Gus ² December 27, 2006 @ 2:43 pm
44. I think India will beat China in the long run. China is not united
country. Guangdong people don\¶t like northern chinese. Fujiang people
don\¶t like guangxii people. Chinese has lot minorities and not united as
we think. I think in the next 50 years, all china will be splitted up to
several small countries,.. guangdong, tibet, xinjang, fujjang, guangxxii«.
The world will be safer. India then can take back Tibet and Xinjang.
China is a communist country. India is a good democracy country.
Comment by vinod patel ² January 8, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
45. ³India then can take back Tibet and Xinjang.´ ± vinod patel
Dream on, baby«
Comment by NotVinod ² February 19, 2007 @ 11:39 am
46. Some very interesting discussion concerning recent economic
developments in China and india. Comparative and analytical, in-depth
with lots of interesting facts and figures
Comment by Carlini ² February 21, 2007 @ 3:39 am
47. I find it highly surprising that people (specially chinese friends
here) discount democracy against GDP growth. Folks, no one in this
world (not at least in their right mind) has died for an extra 0.00001%
of yearly GDP growth anywhere (not even not in China). On the other
hand countless people have literally paid with their lives for simple
freedoms upon which democracy is based on.
So before we start comparing GDP growth rate, keep in mind that what
you refer to democracy hasn\¶t come cheap in India. Its been achived
after almost a 1000 years of opressive rule.
Democracy is a way of organizing goverment and resources that
preserves basic rights and freedom that people value becuase that is
what people value the most. Events in history has often showed this
again and again not just in India but everwhere else too. The structure
and organization of democracy is not designed to promote GDP growth
or the autocratic (and somewhat stupid) goal of becoming #1
superpower in the world. The structure and organization of an ant
colony will do a better job of matching China\¶s GDP growth than a
democrcy.
What India is doing right now is attmpting an experiment in human
history. It is trying to show the world that it is possible to grow quickly
and massivly under a democratic system. Move a billion plus poeple out
of relative scarcity into relative affluence under a democratic system.
Therefore, unlike China there is more at sake in case of India\¶s growth
than just GDP numbers.
I wouldn\¶t trade my freedom to write a personal letter to all the top
members of the government telling them how idotic they are and how I
am going to start a movement to remove them from power just becuase I
feel like doing so. Let me know how many years it will take you in china
to do the same thing? In india we definitely couldn\¶t do it for 300 years
under british rule. Hopefully, you will be able to do it sooner than that.
No offence, but personally, I tend to think that there is something
inherently wrong with idea that values GDP more than freedom. I would
definitely sacrifice a thousand shiny high rise buildings and trains that
zip people 50 miles at 300km/hour (waste of resources anyway) for
freedom without a blink of an eye.
Comment by Albert Pinto ² February 24, 2007 @ 3:43 pm
48. As an chinese, I think China has much to learn from outer world!!
Comment by China man ² February 26, 2007 @ 1:17 pm
49. I do not think that we should compare India with China ± A
democracy versus totalitarian rule. If you look at the growth definitely
China is and will be growing in a much better way. Whether we like it or
not democracy doesn¶t always helps to stabilize and help in the growth
of a country.
y the by why do we need Tibet and Xinjang. Let them be where ever they
are but hope they will live peacefully and not be troubled in any way.
Comment by Anita ² March 5, 2007 @ 7:10 am
50. People who value GDP growth over the freedom of expression are
fools. Dollars are LESS valuable, not more, than the right to know and
speak the truth.
Very high levels of literacy are impressive. Being allowed to read ONLY
what the CCP ³allows´ you to is not.
Being the world¶s largest producer of everything and having high
economic freedom is impressive. Having ABSOLUTELY NO political
freedom is not.
Having the fastest growing large economy in the world is impressive.
Having 6 out of the 10 most polluted cities in the world is not.
Lifting hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty is
impressive. Income inequality reaching proportions where the Chinese
³Communist´ Party admits the problem could be a threat to its very
existence is not.
Hundreds of millions of internet connections are impressive. Not being
allowed to connect to the BBC website, and thousands more, is not.
Being allowed to criticize the government is impressive. Not being
allowed TO DO anything about it is not.
I would gladly trade the glittering skylines of Shanghai and Shenzen for
these freedoms. Why must a nation be drowned in lies?
Comment by Hax0r ² March 8, 2007 @ 11:45 pm
51. Highly recommend everyone to read following articles by India
Journalists for comparison between India¶s poorest region Bihar and
China¶s poorest province Gansu:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Rest_of_World/Welcome_t
o_the_Bihar_of_China/articleshow/msid-1899203,curpg-1.cms
Old Silk Road discovers new prosperity
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-773465,prtpage-
1.cms
µChina¶s Bihar¶ outdoes Lalu
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1045276
Some important observations in these articles:
1. Gansu¶s GDP is about 10 times as that of Bihar.
2. The quality of civic infrastructure of DunHuang ± proper pavements,
parks, pedestrian zones ± is superior to that of any Indian town and
modern housing seems, to the casual visitor at least, to be in ample
supply.
3. The city centre and skyline of Lanzhou ± The Capital of Gansu
Province and one of the poorer cities of China ± look as impressive as
Nariman Point.
For some background information about Dunhuang and Lanzhou,
which were mentioned in above articles, please see pictures from
following sites:
Dunhuang airport:
http://pic.feeyo.com/piclist/31/31510.htm
City of Lanzhou:
http://post.baidu.com/f?kz=152102750
Lanzhou University:
http://post.baidu.com/f?kz=175919691
Comment by thecupgr ² May 28, 2007 @ 6:17 am
52. Bihar often tends to get short end of the stick. Sure there is a lot of
things that are wrong with Bihar, but people often forget that it was the
most developed region of the world in 300BC.
So who gives a damn if Bihar was the most developed region of the
world in 300BC? Well if you are a Chinese whose belief system includes
some form of Buddhism, you should. Becuase if it was not for efforts
made by King Ashoka (who ruled India from Bihar), Buddhism would
never have spread outside of a narrow region in India. You know about
Buddhism today becuase of Bihar and its people in 300BC.
Why should Indians care about Bihar today? Well, becuase much of
what we mean today by the term ³Indian´ was defined in Bihar way back
in history. Irrespective of which region of India you may be from there is
a little bit of Bihari in all of you.
Bihar is definitely down today, but if its past is any indication of future,
it definitely cannot be underestimated in any sense of the word.
What contribution has Gansu made to the world? Whatever it is, I am
sure it is not even worth mentioning as compared to contribution that
Bihar has made to the rest of the world.
Comment by Chup Be ² May 31, 2007 @ 12:47 pm
53. Bihar should at least take a look of Gansu¶s development
experience. This is not to say Bihar has to copy it but to get some
different perspectives. Last year world bank president Wolfwitz toured
Gnasu and delivered a speech at Lanzhou University, in which he
mentioned how much progress was made in some of the harshest
natural environemnt. Recently we noticed that the head of India¶s Tata
Institute of Social Sciences, Professor Ramila Bhist and Kashimir
agriculture secretary Tsering Nurboo visited Lanzhou University
(http://news.lzu.edu.cn/article.jsp?newsid=8280) for collaborations.
This might be the direct result from India journalists¶s earlier visits.
Gansu¶s development is a very good business case for stuyding poverty
reduction. Historically, Gansu was among one of the places where the
Chinese culture was bron and natured. Gansu is the home of one of the
two China¶s earliest emperors, The Yan Emperor. Every year, Chinese
from all corners of the world will travel to Gansu¶s Tianshui City to pay
respect to the Yan Emperor. Gansu is also well-known as the key part of
the ancient silk road where different religions have been living together
peacefully for thousand years.
However, Gansu slowly drifted to poverty over time and has been
generally regarded as one of the poorest provinces in China. When
people¶s republic of China was established, Gansu and its capital city,
Lanzhou, had no modern industry at all. How bad the situation was: the
mountains of around the Lanzhou City had only one tree standing (all
trees you see in Lanzhou now have been painstakingly planted by hands
and watered by taking water from yellow river with manual labor in
early days).
For looking into Gansu¶s developemnt experience, we recommend Bihar
or other developing nations to start with education and R&D. Our
research data shows that the education and long-term planning are two
keys for steady and predicted development. In Gansu¶s case, education
and R&D were put in place much much earlier than the current
infrastructure boom.
For education and R&D, we found that it took at least several decades
for Gansu and Lanzhou to emerge as a technology base for providing
local economy benefits. There are no short-cut to poverty reduction.
Both government support and hard work from local people are required.
How was this be done? Here is the clue: the establishment of PR China
was quickly followed a nation wide redistrubution of education
resources in 1950s. Lanzhou was selected by then as the site for
establishing a comprehensive university for overseeing the China¶s
western region development. At the same time, a big branch of Chinese
Academy was also located at Lanzhou for devloping R&D solutions for
local economy (as well as for the nation). The results of that early
planning has been amazingly positive:
1). Lanzhou is now one of the major education and R&D centers in
China. Our recent data shows that Lanzhou has over 700 research
entities (including industry and universities) for doing almost all kinds
of activities for the local economy.
2). Lanzhou University and Chinese Academy Lanzhou Branch solved all
engineering problems for Qinghai-Tibet railway construction. This is the
direct result of many years of research accumulation on west region¶s
environment and natural landscapes.
3). Lanzhou University and Chinese Academy Lanzhou Branch host
world class research centers for arid agriculture and desert science.
Lanzhou is designated by Unitted Nations for training scientists for
africa and other nations for battling desert.
4). Lanzhou also lead on solar energy technology and United Nations
recently selected Lanzhou as its solar technology training center for
developing nations.
5). Lanzhou University was selected to join the international team for
traking and researching climate change.
6). Gansu is the host province for China¶s manned-space program and
launch center.
7). Lanzhou is the home of China¶s number one selling magzine: the
³Reader´, with over 10 million copies per year. The magzine was started
by two Lanzhou University graduates.
8). Lanzhou is the home of China¶s number one dance drama: The
Dream on the Silk Road. Recently it toured Europe and Australia and
will tour US in 2008. The Lanzhou Symphony Orchestra also toured
Europe with performance in Vienna Golden Hall in early 2007.
The highest respect has to give to India Journalists for writing what they
saw without political and emotional bias. For poverty reduction, the
reality has to be faced by finding solutions. We will continue to monitor
how Bihar and Gansu developing in the future.
Comment by thecupgr ² June 2, 2007 @ 9:46 am
54. Follwoing video is a good place to see what India Journalists had
described about Lanzhou in their articles:
http://www.lanzhou.cn/sys0_inc_vod_hit.asp?VI_ID=7
The video has Chinese chnaracters, but you can view through without
difficulty. The name of the video is called: Beautiful Lanzhou, China,
which is for attracting investments.
Comment by thecupgr ² June 3, 2007 @ 12:05 am
55.thecurgr wrote:
>
> We will continue to monitor how Bihar and Gansu developing in the
future
>
Thanks and ³We´ will continue to monitor how regime change takes
place in Lanzhou and then spreads into Gansu before causing a regime
change in entire China. You can start by posting a sign calling for regime
change in Lanzhou¶s main square.
Good luck with running the Gansu propoganda department until then.
Comment by Propoganda ² June 8, 2007 @ 10:59 am
56. guys, i have loads of information about india¶s advantages over
china.
but can somebody brief me on china¶s advantages on indian economy!!
Comment by sagar ² June 8, 2007 @ 10:21 pm
57. chinese and indian main problems are their govts while the chinese have
an economically sound govt but its oppresive nature has already put
them on a collision curse with the growing educated and rich population
china is a capitalist nation run by a communist govt if china doesnt
begin a gradual transition towards a more free and none oppressive
china we will see tianamen square where the people will become the
hunters and the politicians will become the hunted india on the other
hand has a corrupted religious based uneducated local govt that preys
on victims of beaucratic redtapes as dense as the amazon forest this
cycle will only break when again more of the population grows rich and
educated im really happy for chinese success because if it wasnt for their
growth out indian politicians wouldn¶t have done a thing to help grow
our economy im more than hapy for our govt to race and belittle the
chinese because the more powerful and successful the chinese become
the more fear and jealousy it will instill in indian politicians and force
them to learn and take necessary action to grow the economy
to keep it simple the chinese drive and look out for obstacles and avoid
them while our govt drive hits the obstacles and then looks at the road
Comment by 1947 ² July 13, 2007 @ 4:06 pm
58. 31 African officials drew Gansu¶s experiences of poverty reduction.
Thirty-one government officials from 16 African countries arrived in
remote, underdeveloped northwest China¶s Gansu Province on Saturday
to draw on useful experiences of poverty reduction.
These officials, from countries such as Angola, the Democratic Republic
of Congo, Egypt, Cote d¶Ivoire and Kenya, will in the following week visit
the countryside of the province to see successful poverty-reduction
programs and practices there, including returning cultivated land to
forests and building water cellars.
Gansu is one of the poorest provinces in China, but it has made lots of
achievements in poverty alleviation ± there were more than 12 million
people who had no adequate food and clothing, but now, there are less
than 3.2 million low-income people.
³I should thank the Chinese government for building such a
communication platform which helps me understand China better.
China¶s ideas and policies of poverty reduction are as same as Egypt¶s
but the concrete ways and means are not the same. A lot of experiences
worth us learning,´ said Mohamed Hassan Mohamed Rashwan, from
Egypt¶s Ministry of Community Development.
These African officials came here from Beijing, where they have received
training on poverty reduction for a week as part of a 15-day training
course on poverty reduction.
At the Beijing Summit of the Forum on China-Africa Cooperation held
last November, Chinese President Hu Jintao pledged to strengthen
China-Africa cooperation through eight measures including training
15,000 personnel in all fields in the upcoming three years.
The training course is part of that commitment and also the second of its
kind this year. China held four training courses last year for developing
countries in Africa and south Asia.
³We will hold more such courses and exchange experiences with other
developing countries,´ said Wu Zhong, from the China International
Poverty Alleviation Center, which organizes the training courses.
The Chinese government decided to embark on a poverty eradication
campaign in a large, planned, organized manner in 1986. The number of
Chinese in abject poverty has dropped from 250 million in 1978 to 26.1
million in 2004.
Comment by Thecupgr ² July 15, 2007 @ 1:19 am
59. To compare India & China on their economy would not be
possible because of the difference in their educational and political
situation.
Indians still have not woken up to the fact that the progress they are
seeing is primarily because of the service industry and predominantly
because of the IT service industry.
We are becoming dependent only on the sofware part of IT and not
developing an harware skills with our education system. There should
be more concentartion on hardware and manufacturing in the IT
industry. School should implement hardware learning programs from
the primary level just as they are doing on the software level. This will
create an interest in the new generation towards hardware and
manufacturing.
India should become more production oreinted and also maintain the
service industry simultaniuosly.
This will give it and advantage over china.
Also to speed up the progress it will be very important to reduce
corruption, red tape and create a political initative towards in this
direction
Comment by Raju ² November 9, 2007 @ 9:44 am
60. Well well people supporting china should realize the fact that
india¶s present youth are far more global than china¶s. indians across the
world are more patriotic towards thier country than any country
people.India has the best brains in the world.Come 2050 India will rule..
Comment by krish ² December 20, 2007 @ 3:53 pm
61. I originally didnot want to comment on this issue, but looks a lot of us
Indians live in the dream world. Guys get real, we have a very long way
to go before we can be called a progressive nation. We still have the
largest number of poor people in the world.
Our present growth while being wonderful, has primarily benefitted the
people blogging here, i.e. the middle class.
Also the article, it mentions that the inflation figures as being low, but
then that¶s WPI!!!. The real inflation faced by the common man is much
higher.
Also we face a current account deficit minus capital inflows from
abroad. Everybody here seems to underestimate the effect on the
economy if due to some reason, there is a big reduction is capital
inflows. We could end up with 1991 all over again.
Comment by vj ² December 20, 2007 @ 8:18 pm
62. hi, i am currently living in Yiwu, China«im a born Indian &
brought up in India,Lived in China for many years.
i just loved reading the comments made on this blog> India has a long
way to go in regards to many factors that actually concern economy of a
country. in regards to language i dont think we are properous because
we speak english. many Indians live in China where as in china they
hardly speak English, we learn their language and do business with
them. language can be learnt and dealth with in a short period of time.
India is hanging behind is only because of corruption. if these stupid
ministers leave the politics to Young educated aggresive citizen, india
can prosper in no time. Its because of these politicians that we have
religious fights and problems.
Democracy is always good but not good when a country is divided where
there is no majority and end of joining hands in like a coillition
government. the stupid people didnt even let Sonia Gandhi take the
stand as Prime Minister just because she was an italian at birth, what
about her commitment to the country fight in the same views as her late
Husband Rajiv Ghandi. she would have done a much better Job not that
the present p.m isnt doing a good one himself.
China is much more developed and grows fast. Buildings built
everywhere and in a very short period of time. where as in India it takes
them years to even get a license to build leave alone the time it takes
them to build. sadess part is India¶s transport system is the worst. how
will we be able to build an economy when we cant get our working force
to work on time.
we have the capability to rule the world, we are smart, even our
Dhabalwala¶s worked in an amazing way united. the key to success is
united and a systematic way and must change our politicians to the
younger generation.
I feel China is going to face major problems in the future first of all most
of their major population are average 40+ and are allowed 1 kid per
family- their economy is driven only by the population which in the
future will fall drastically. Plus their the funniest thing i have ever seen
in my life the kids who pass out graduating from colleges when they
come for an interview they come in with their mother (the are over
protected) instead of the person looking for the job answer questions his
mother answer it for him!!! ( our indian kids at age 9 are smarter in
answering then the a college student in china).
well all i can say Im proud I was born in India & it will change in time(
fingers crossed)
Comment by Gul ² February 27, 2008 @ 12:16 pm
63. [...] of course, there is competition for investment and trade,
which will only intensify as China becomes proficient in the English
language and India gets its manufacturing act [...]
Pingback by The Acorn » One China Policy ² April 3, 2008 @ 12:25
pm
64. póquer 7stud hi lo sin límite«
, «
Trackback by póquer 7stud hi lo sin límite ² October 24, 2008 @ 11:19
am
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack U
Prediction: India, China will be economic giants
By John Diamond, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON ² By the year 2020, China and India will be vying with the United States for global economic
supremacy, the nation's top intelligence analysts predict, and al-Qaeda will have withered away ² only to be replaced
by smaller, more splintered but equally deadly groups of terrorists.



National Intelligence Council Chairman Robert
Hutchings says the report tries to avoid "gloom
and doom."

Woodrow Wilson School at Princeton University
The National Intelligence Council issued its once-every-five-year look at the future of the globe
Thursday, contrasting optimism about dramatic global economic growth with concern that the
same cyberpathways fueling economic development are also hastening the spread of violent,
radical Islam.
"It's going to be a very bumpy ride," council Vice Chairman David Gordon said.
Headquartered at the CIA in Langley, Va., but independent of the spy agency, the council
coordinates the production of intelligence reports that combine the views of all 15 of the nation's
intelligence agencies. In 2002, the council, then with a different membership, concluded in a
National Intelligence Estimate, now largely discredited, that Iraq had weapons of mass
destruction.
Rather than locking itself into a single prediction of what the world will look like in 2020, the
council considered four hypothetical scenarios:
‡ A world dominated by Asian economic expansion;
‡ A world in which the United States shapes and organizes global change;
‡ The rise of a new Islamic Caliphate ² an international Islamic authority capable of
challenging Western norms and values;
‡ A "cycle of fear" scenario in which aggressive responses to terror threats lead to increasingly
intrusive security measures, "possibly introducing an Orwellian world."
Much of the council's outlook for the world in 15 years is optimistic, however.
"What we tried to avoid is what you often get from the intelligence community, which is nothing
but gloom and doom," council Chairman Robert Hutchings said.
The world economy will likely be 80% larger in 2020 than it was in 2000, and average income
will be 50% higher. While the United States will retain its role as the world's dominant economy
and military power, China and India, the world's two most populous countries, will see their
clout grow substantially, the council predicts.
"In the same way that commentators refer to the 1900s as the 'American Century,' the 21st
century may be seen as a time when Asia, led by China and India, comes into its own," the
council writes in its report, Mapping the Global Future. "A combination of sustained high
economic growth, expanding military capabilities, and large populations will be at the root of the
expected rapid rise in economic and military power for both countries."
Along with that growth will come increasing dangers as China's and India's military power
expands. The report cites the India-Pakistan conflict and tension between China and Taiwan as
two areas where miscalculation could lead to costly wars. In general, the council says the risk
of great-power conflict is lower than at any time in the past century, but that as China, India and
other growing powers improve their weaponry, the world's most powerful nations may be
increasingly tempted to engage in pre-emptive war.
Rapid growth and the ease of international travel and communication will make security threats
much harder for U.S. intelligence to spot, the council warns.
The council, whose members have access to the most sensitive intelligence data, predicts that
by 2020, al-Qaeda will be superseded by smaller but equally violent Islamic groups. The same
information-technology boom contributing to growth in China and India will help spread radical
Islamic ideology, the council warns, and "enable the terrorist threat to become increasingly
decentralized."
The council deliberately timed the release of its report to come after the presidential election,
and the group avoided implying approval or disapproval of any current U.S. policy. The council
agrees with the Bush administration that democracy will likely spread in "key Middle Eastern
countries" now under repressive regimes. But the report warns that the advance of democracy
in Southeast Asia and some former Soviet states could be "partially reversed."


Comparing American Students With Those in China and India
Americans watch Grey's Anatomy while their international peers study longer hours
By Eddy Ramírez
Posted January 30, 2008
y
y
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Two million minutes is the estimated time that students spend in high school. It is also the title of a new documentary film
that suggests American students squander too much of that time. While their peers in China and India study longer hours to
sharpen their math and science skills, top students from one of the best high schools in the U.S. are playing video games and
watching Grey's Anatomy during a group study session, at least in clips seen in the documentary.


Indian students check their test results on a school notice board in New Delhi.
The film, produced by Memphis venture capitalist Robert Compton and promoted by the ED in '08 political organization, is
the latest attempt at igniting a national debate about the need to put more emphasis on math and science education if the
United States is to remain competitive in a global economy. But supporters of the film acknowledge they face an uphill climb
to make education a central issue in the presidential race.
Two Million Minutes: A Global Examination follows six students through their senior year of high school in the United
States, India, and China. Brittany Brechbuhl is a 17-year-old who's in the top 3 percent of her graduating class at Carmel
High School in Indiana. She aspires to become a doctor but also wants to join a sorority and "party." Neil Ahrendt, 18, is
another talented Carmel student who is the senior class president and former quarterback of the football team. These
American teenagers' attitudes toward academics differ sharply from those of their peers in India and China, who seem more
motivated and focused. Take, for example, 17-year-old Apoorva Uppala, who attends Saturday tutoring sessions to prepare
for her university entrance exams. She wants to become an engineer, which she calls "the safest" profession in India. In
Shanghai, Jin Ruizhang, 17, preps for international math tournaments. He is already the top math student at his school and
hopes to get into a prestigious university offering an advanced math program.
So far, ED in '08²a nonpartisan education watch group supported by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the Eli and
Edythe Broad Foundation²has shown the film at private screenings in key battleground states like Iowa and South Carolina.
Even though it has not been released to general audiences yet, the film has drawn criticism from the Graduate School of
Education at Harvard University and others who say it fans anxiety without enough evidence to support its claims. Walt
Gardner, a former lecturer at the University of California-Los Angeles who taught in public schools for 28 years, says neither
China nor India has participated in international assessments. "How do we know how well Chinese and Indian students
would perform?" he asks.
ED in '08, which is promoting Two Million Minutes, also has a provocative campaign of its own, designed to get the
candidates to talk about how to fix schools. In the days before the Iowa caucuses, the group ran a television ad featuring
teenagers who declare themselves the future of the country. Only in the future "I will steal your car," one teen says. Another
says, "I will use drugs to escape." Even hip-hop superstar Kanye West has jumped on the bandwagon, shooting an ad for ED
in '08 in which he urges the candidates to address the high dropout rate among minority high school students.
Two Million Minutes shows that "we are falling behind the rest of the world quite rapidly," says former Colorado Gov. Roy
Romer, who is chairman of the ED in '08 group and more recently served as superintendent of public schools in Los Angeles.
"I don't know of anyone [concerned about the economy] who does not come back to [the notion] that it depends on the skill
level and knowledge of our workforce, and that's our message."





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India and China: a comparison

January 18, 2005
The gap between the performance of the world's two largest nations, China and India, keeps growing. Two
instances from entirely different fields should give us an idea.
The world's first commercial maglev (magnetic levitation) train is operating between the Pudong International
Airport and downtown Shanghai.
It takes just seven minutes to cross the 30-kilometre distance -- which is about the same distance between
Mumbai's international airport and Nariman Point, which takes anywhere from 75 minutes to a couple of
hours, to cover.
In a different field, China won 63 medals in the last Olympics; India just one. The growing gap in economic
performance, too, evidences few signs of narrowing.
Historically, there are a number of similarities between the two: ancient civilisations, the world's leading and
richest at one time; going down the league table in the second-half of the second millennium; and starting
their progress to modernity in the middle of the last century.
In the 1950s and 1960s there was considerable media debate on which system, authoritarian communism in
China or parliamentary democracy in India, will deliver better.
There was not much difference in the economic performance roughly until 1980, when the per capita incomes
were also similar. Over the last quarter century, both instituted economic reforms and growth accelerated.
China embraced globalisation and trade enthusiastically, welcoming foreign direct investment with no
inhibitions, and gradually gaining control of world markets for low-tech labour-intensive manufactures.
While reforms in India are supposed to have been initiated in 1991, the doctrinaire socialist policy had begun
to be diluted in the second innings of Indira Gandhi.
The process of liberalisation continued under her son Rajiv Gandhi, and more dramatically after 1991. The
growth rate doubled from the previous Hindu rate, but still lagged that of China.
The result has been that starting with more or less the same per capita incomes 25 years back, Chinese
incomes today are double that of India's -- a result not only of faster GDP growth, but also of a lower
population increase, thanks to the one-child policy.
Both face growing economic inequality.
Today, apart from higher incomes and lower poverty, the areas in which China is far ahead of us are literacy,
FDI, labour rationalisation in the public sector and infrastructure investments.
Many international observers are astounded at the sheer speed with which infrastructure projects get
implemented. As the Financial Times commented (January 21, 2004) "if thousands of villagers have to be
moved to make way for roads or power stations, so be it: investment in infrastructure underpins China's
success."
While the Deng revolution completely discarded Mao's economic model, the Chinese haven't forgotten one of
the Great Helmsman's thoughts: respect your enemy (that is, any problem) strategically, and despise him
tactically.
The blitzkrieg-like implementation of projects is an illustration of the latter tenet.
Contrast the way the giant Three Gorges Dam has come up in China, with the fate of the Sardar Sarovar
Project in Gujarat.
Agitation, endless court cases, environmentalists, and other manifestations of a democratic, rule-of-law
society have not only delayed implementation perhaps by a decade, but also added enormously to the costs.
And the direct cost escalation is perhaps only a small part of the total cost to the economy.
One can only imagine the output lost because of the delays in the starting of the project.
Take another instance where China is ahead of us, namely, labour-intensive manufacture.
Our labour laws, which protect existing employment, but at the cost of creating new jobs, have created a bias
in favour of capital-intensive investments.
An Ambani prefers a refinery, in which the only comparative advantage comes out of the duty structure, to
manufacturing, say, toys in billions and exporting them to the world.
China does not seem to be treating PSUs as holy cows either -- millions of jobs in state-owned enterprises
have been lost in preparation for world competition.
But new ones keep getting created in larger numbers. In contrast, we not only condone over-manning, but
also keep thousands employed in factories that haven't produced anything for decades.
No wonder resources are short for the much-needed investments. Organised private industry, afraid of labour
laws, has produced few new ones in recent years.
There is a positive side to our system as well: we avoided the millions of starvation deaths that were a
corollary to Mao's "Great Leap Forward" in augmenting steel output, and the social chaos of his Cultural
Revolution.
Only an authoritarian system would permit such excesses. But the fact remains that fast growth in Asia has
invariably come under authoritarian governments.
The correlation is strong, but as political correctness will argue, correlation is not necessarily cause and
effect. Again, is quarter of a century too short a period to compare the efficacy of enlightened, reformist,
authoritarian regimes and political democracies?
To be sure, there is one field where we have a good, if frightening, chance of beating China -- population. In
most other areas, it is more comfortable to stop making comparisons.

ffeHISTORY OF INDIA
VS CHINA
.
T
he
his
tor
y
of
sci
en
ce
an
d
tec
hn
olo
gy
in
Ind
iab
egi
ns
wit
h
pr
ehi
sto
ric
hu
ma
n
flo
cki
ng
acti
vity
at
Me
hr
ga
rh,
in
pr
es
ent
-
da
y
Pa
kist
an,
an
d
co
nti
nu
es
thr
ou
gh
the
Ind
us
Va
lle
y
Civ
iliz
ati
on
to
ea
rly
sta
tes
an
d
em
pir
es
CHI
NA
IND
IA

Among the earl
i
e
s
t
i
n
v
ent
i
on
s
were the
aba
c
u
s
, the "
s
hadow
c
lo
ck
," and the f
i
r
s
t
fly
i
ng ma
c
h
i
ne
ss
u
c
h
a
s ki
te
s
and
Kongm
i
ng lantern
s
.
The
fo
ur
Gr
ea
t
Inv
en
tio
ns
of
an
cie
nt
Ch
ina
:
the
c
ompa
ss
,
gunpowder,
paperma
ki
ng, and
pr
i
nt
i
ng, were among
the mo
s
t
i
mportant

Indu
sv
alley
civi

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