2010Apr29 - Howard Griswold Conference Call

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Howard Griswold Conference Call—Thursday, April 29, 2010 Partial Howard Griswold Conference calls: 218-844-3388 pin 966771# (6 mutes & un-mutes), Thursday’s at 8 p.m., Eastern Time. ‘6’ Mutes and un-mutes

Conference Call is simulcast on:
www.TheREALPublicRadio.Net Starting in the first hour at 8 p.m.

Note: there is a hydrate water call Monday’s, same time and number and pin #. Howard’s home number: 302-875-2653 (between 9:30, a.m, and 7:00, p.m.)
Mickey’s debt collection call is 8:00 p.m., Eastern Time, Wednesday night. The number is 712 – 432 – 8773 and the pin number is 947975#.

All correspondence to: Gemini Investment Research Group, POB 398, Delmar, Del. 19940 (do not address mail to ‘Howard Griswold’ since Howard has not taken up residence in that mailbox and since he’s on good terms with his wife he isn’t likely to in the foreseeable future.) "All" Howard's and GEMINI RESEARCH's information through the years, has been gathered, combined and collated into 3 "Home-Study Courses" and "Information packages" listed at www.peoples-rights.com "Mail Order" DONATIONS and/or Toll-Free 1-877-544-4718 (24 Hours F.A.Q. line) Dave DiReamer can be reached at: [email protected] Peoples-rights has a new book available from The Informer: Just Who Really Owns the United States, the International Monetary Fund, Federal Reserve, World Bank, Your House, Your Car, Everything—the Myth and the Reality. He’ll take $45 for the book to help with ads, but $40 would be ok which includes shipping ($35 barebones minimum) www.peoples-rights.com c/o 1624 Savannah Road, Lewes, Delaware 19958 ******************** Often you can find a transcript or a partial one for the week’s call at the following website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplelookingforthetruth ******************************************************************* When you aren’t talking please mute your phone!! It would be best if you mute your phone when you first come on, then un-mute it when you want to talk and then re-mute it.

You can use the *6 button on your phone or use the phone’s mute button Speaker phones and cell phones are not desirable as they can chop up the call badly occasionally. If you are recording the call and leave the phone unintended, please mute!!!!! Note, on October 30th someone left the phone un-muted and coupled television audio into the phone making the conference call conversations very difficult. When you are not muted be careful of making noise such as breathing hard into the phone’s microphone or rubbing the mouthpiece or not reducing extraneous noise across the room. Cell phones can pick up wind noise when used outside and also if not in a primary reception zone can couple noise into the call. Excessive echoes and noise will terminate the conference call. Cell phones and speaker phones can cause echoes. Keep the call quiet, don’t make Howard climb out of his mailbox and bop you one. ******************************************************************* Note: the telephone lines are usually quite noisy and therefore it would be prudent to slow your speech down otherwise your words and meaning will be lost. Suggestion to everyone (even Howard): Get a phone with a privacy or mute button. This is much more convenient than star-6 and more rapid to use. It can also be used as a cough button since it can be used rapidly. Try it, you’ll like it. *********************************************************************

A recording of each Howard Griswold Thursday conference call is available from Dezert Owl upon request for any sized donation. Go to the following link: www.TheRealPublicRadio.Net/Archives.html .
{01:09:52.409} [Greg] Howard, my name is Greg from Rome, Ohio. I have a little legal problem. Maybe you could advise me. [Howard] No, we don’t do that. We teach you what the law says and tell you where to find things in the law but we don’t advise anybody… [Greg] Maybe you could tell me where to find out… Eight months ago the big time humane society of Ashtabula County came and told me that my dogs didn’t look good and whatever. I said, ‘well it’s not your problem; go on, get out of here.’ The woman, she came around the next time and she said, ‘I got a complaint—I could take all your animals.’ I said, ‘you get the hell out of here.’ So then she had me served with papers that I was cruel and inhumane and I had to go answer them in the court and I said ‘not guilty’—four counts of animal cruelty of I don’t feed them and…that I beat them and I never touch the dogs.

I’ve been doing this for forty years. I’ve had over a hundred dogs, spent over $100,000. It’s my whole life with these animals. I have a storage and salvage yard out in the country. [caller] You should give them a neutral response on that. He’s making himself a party to the action by answering that question. [Howard] [Greg] [Howard] By going in and pleading, you made yourself a party to the case. Well, they served me with a subpoena. Ok. So what? That doesn’t mean you have to answer it.

[Greg] Well, I did answer it. And then, I told them I was broke so I got a public defender and all he told me is plead guilty and guilty, guilty, guilty—I said, ‘no.’ So, I bumped him off and I raised some money and I got this other lawyer and for the last seven, eight months… [caller] [Howard] He’s a public pretender—he’s not a defender. And the one you hired was no better than the public defender.

[Greg] No, he was worse because go fast eight months later—this is now end of April, beginning of May, and we were supposed to have trial by jury which I demanded and he keeps stalling me, the courts keep stalling me, and finally he wanted me to come in his office. He wanted more money and I told him he isn’t getting any more money until I get my dogs. They did come and seize back in August seven of my dogs without a search warrant. I wouldn’t open the gate. I just stood there and the sheriff unlocked the barricades and two Humane Society assholes jumped the fence and they too five week-old puppies, five of them. They took my main dog because she came out trying to help me and they grabbed her and another dog. So, anyway, they had by dogs for eight, nine months now. And the lawyer which I wouldn’t give any more money who I told, you get me my dogs,’ and he’s been giving me a line of bullshit for the last seven or eight months since I dumped the public defender and got him. I thought he’d be better but he’s just as bad so come yesterday we had a little pre-trial like and it was the lawyer wanted to drop the case—said I wouldn’t cooperate with him. And the judge asked me, ‘is this true, you aren’t going to pay him until you get your dogs?’ I said, ‘correct. He said, ‘well what are you going to do if he withdraws?’ I said, ‘I’ll represent myself.’ My friend, Jim Leech, has been advising me of what to do and say. So, then the judge said to me, ‘how are you going to defend yourself?’ I said, ‘well, there’s only me out there and I’m going to use the Constitution.’ They took my dogs without a search and seizure warrant. They didn’t give me due process and you people… I would never let them in. They jumped the fence. And then the woman that has charged all these with me two months ago I found out she’s gone, the Humane Society agent. So, they appointed another special prosecutor to handle the case and the special prosecutor…

[Howard] Well, keep this in mind throughout any of the hearings that you go to. Anything that an attorney says is hearsay. He doesn’t know, he wasn’t there, he didn’t see it happen so he has no first-hand knowledge. Whatever the attorney says is hearsay so you have to object to the judge that what he said is hearsay. It’s not admissible in the courts under the rules of evidence. After a while with nobody, especially not that original woman being available that started this whole mess if there was anything legitimate at all to their claim that she could testify to she’s not there to testify anymore—right? [Greg] Yeah—from what I understand.

[Howard] Alright, so there’s no first-hand knowledge. In order to testify they have to have first-hand knowledge otherwise it’s hearsay and hearsay is not permissible. Now, there are a few exceptions to the hearsay rule. For instance, if the ship went down and the captain went down with the ship and there’s nobody to testify about the incident then the owner of the ship company can testify with hearsay evidence because that’s the only evidence that’s available. Well, that doesn’t apply to this kind of a situation. The other thing is you used the right word, they trespassed. If I were you I would go into the law books and look up anything you can find on trespass and how to make an action for trespassing and sue every one of these people for trespassing on your property. [caller] capacity? [Howard] [Greg] [Howard] [caller] [Howard] [caller] You want to do that in their private capacity, right, not in their official Yeah, you sue them, not the city or the state or the town—the individual. Ok, well they have on the complaint that the State of Ohio is against me. You sue them. The State of Ohio is a fiction. Right. It’s a fictional corporation.

[Greg] Ok, when I was in court yesterday, the special prosecutor read off a bunch of plea agreements. The judge said, ‘yes, we know about that, that’s why we’re going to give you a plea.’ Everything was ‘I give up, I pay, I give up, I pay.’ I said, ‘no, none of this, I don’t want any of this stuff because you violated my rights.’ And the judge, he’s on their side. He says, ‘how are you going to…in a court of law, you don’t know anything about the law?’ [Howard] That’s a good point. Now, here’s how we get into the evidence. You could use the Rules of Discovery out of the court rules and ask them little pointed questions like, ‘did the State of Ohio buy and pay for those dogs? Did the State of Ohio buy and pay for the feed and care of those dogs?’

[Greg] That’s what…to the Humane Society back seven, eight months ago and she just hoo hooed me. [Howard] Why certainly because you didn’t do it under the rules of court. You got to use the discovery rules of court. They’re never going to answer this. [Greg] I already got the book. My friend ordered it and we got it. I’m just going to go get as soon as I talk to you because Jim said I could talk to you, the rules of discovery. That’s what I told her. I said, ‘you and the state don’t pay for my dogs, you don’t pay for my food. These are my watch dogs and when I bought out the Constitution yesterday in court it was so quiet, you could hear… It was like nobody existed in the whole world because I brought up the Constitution. And then the judge said, ‘well, we’re going to make you a plea because… He said in so many words that I’m wrong but they’re wrong and they want me to give up all the dogs, pay all the costs to the Humane Society and this lawyer that screwed me, I give him $1100 and he wants more money. The judge wants to appoint him to advise me. I said I don’t want anything to do with him. So, what I did when I got home yesterday after the court, I sent the certified letter to the judge, ‘thank you for considering to help me but I do not want this individual anywhere near me legally or anything.’ I sent him two letters, one regular and one certified. From day one he was no good but he cost me—you figure maybe one out of a thousand might be good of a lawyer. [caller] One out of a hundred thousand.

[Greg] So, it cost me and I learned the hard way and he’s gone and there’s just me going next Wednesday to like a plea trial. The judge said, ‘how are you going to present evidence? If you don’t present it right I will throw it out and you may be right but if you can’t present the evidence the jury will never hear it. In other words, he’s already against me. [Howard] [Greg] [Howard] [Greg] Well, in this plea thing don’t plea. No, I’m not guilty. No. Not to plead anything?

[Howard] No, you tell him you don’t consent. This is a trespass on your property and you’re not consenting to their action. Now, I would suggest that you look up how to file a complaint against them for trespassing on your private property. Your dogs are your private property. You bought and paid for them. They can’t prove that they paid for them and you use discovery to get them to answer that they bought and paid for them and, of course, they won’ answer so their failure to answer is an evidence that they didn’t buy and pay for them because if they did then they’d be able to answer, wouldn’t they?

[Henry] [Howard] [Henry]

How about the injured party? Don’t worry about the injured party right now. Ok.

[Greg] They said they got my dogs but I must surrender them and pay them for stealing my dogs. They didn’t say it that way but I said, ‘no, no, no way.’ What I understand is that about two months ago and I discovered that the Humane Society—shall we call her a young lady that started all this stuff—she’s supposed be gone and that’s why the lawyer lied to me. He said, ‘we have to have a special prosecutor.’ He didn’t know that I knew she was gone so they come up with this special prosecutor. [Howard] Well, anything he says is hearsay because he’s just reading the papers and hearing what other people have to say and he wasn’t there and doesn’t know anything about it really, first hand, so anything he learns from the papers is repeating what he found from somebody else—that’s hearsay. Hearsay is not permissible in the courts. [Greg] What she pulled on me is when they took my dogs the special prosecutor said they’re going to have two veterinarians testify against me. I said, ‘on the dogs you stole from me?’ [Howard] [Greg] And they’re paid probably by them—that’s another thing. Yeah, by government agencies.

[Howard] They’re paid by government to do this so naturally they’re going to testify in favor of the government so they’re a biased witness. That’s not permissible—that’s not under the good evidence rules. You need to get into the Rules of Evidence book. [Greg] I’ve got the book. As soon as I’m done talking with you I’m going four miles to pick up the books. I ordered them—it cost me $130—Ohio Rules of Evidence in Court. Jim told me about that and I ordered them a week ago but I wanted to get your… And you gave me good knowledge, right now, about the rules of evidence and use discovery and when they ask me how am I going to plead come Wednesday on the plea trial I’m just going to say, ‘no consent, you’re trespassing. Jim wants me to file an in forma pauperis… [Howard] [Greg] I wouldn’t do that yet. I was going to do it tomorrow. I was going to go get the stuff and try to…

[Howard] That puts yourself in the jurisdiction of the court because you’re asking the court to consent to you that you can’t afford to pay so now they’ll appoint a lawyer for you and say you got to use him.

[Greg] Well, that’s what this guy, this judge—he’s a known drunk—he was trying to tell me that he’s got to appoint somebody and he wanted to appoint this lawyer because the lawyer he’s sucking ass with the court and… [caller] Can I ask you a question? What’s the judge’s name?

[Greg] Stevens out of the western county of Ashtabula. There’s western and eastern, there’s two… [caller] [Greg] Ok. …he’s like that also. Is that the eastern county…? You know Ashtabula?

[caller] Well, I did work in that area. I’m in New York but I did work in that court. You could have gotten the rules of evidence for Ohio right off line. [Greg] Well, I want the book and when I’m done I’m going to give it to my friend, Jim. We’re going to both use it so it’s nice to have the book there. [Howard] It’s better to have the book.

[Greg] Right. So I’m going to go read the book but like you say when I go Wednesday I got to be there at ten o’clock and then the special prosecutor…because I knew this lawyer was stringing me along because two or three months ago I knew the woman was gone. That’s why they had to have a special prosecutor and Jim informed me that because of discover they have no knowledge. They got to hire somebody. They don’t want to lose so they’re coming up with anything off the wall to keep this going and if I don’t consent, yes or no, like you say, Howard, I could just say, ‘no consent,’ and then I’m going to try to find all the rules about trespassing. [Howard] [Greg] And file a complaint against them for trespass. And I could do that by myself? I don’t need the in forma pauperis?

[Howard] If you’re going to file a complaint like that you should pay the court for the filing of the complaint. Don’t file it in the same court. File it in the next higher court up. [Greg] That’s what I was thinking and don’t file this in forma pauperis yet because like you say, then I’m under their jurisdiction too. [Howard] Right, you’re asking them to forgive the cost so you’re putting yourself under their authority. [Greg] I see. And that’s why he was trying to tell me… In my opinion he wanted to have my deadbeat lawyer that I gave eleven to and he said, ‘what do I owe you, four hundred more. He wanted fifty now and he had eleven. He said, ‘oh, you owe me much

more that that.’ This has been going on for eight months now. Don’t you think we’d have had trial by jury, let’s go. I told the judge, ‘I’m here, let’s go.’ And the judge said, ‘well, you don’t think we’re slowing this down or holding this up?’ I said, ‘well, you had me sign a waiver. I never knew I signed a waiver for a speedy trial. In the three forms you sign for a recognizance bond. There it was, I had signed away—I never even knew that. [Howard] That’s why you should never sign anything without putting ‘without prejudice’ under your name. [Joe] Howard, I want to comment here if I can for a second. If they have any photographs that they took of your property and if they were taken by that previous lady… [Greg] [Joe] verify. Yes, they did. Those photographs are going to be inadmissible because she’s not there to

[Greg] The only thing I got to talk to the special prosecutor for about five minutes and that they got to veterinarians to come to testify against me. Nothing is said about this— her name is Donna from the Humane Society. Ashtabula is so broke they laid off twentyseven, thirty sheriffs and they laid off a lot of other people and from what I heard they wouldn’t pay her so she just up and took off. Again, what I’m saying is, if they took photographs and they try to bring them into evidence it’s my understanding that she has to be there to say that she took them, she would validate it. [Greg] Now she’s got me on four counts of animal cruelty and another humane society said I could… She told me what to say. I did not confine them because my dogs run loose and then she got me….but she took pictures of some sick dogs I had. Let’s face it, I’ve got twenty or thirty dogs, one or two—I don’t know you but there’s something wrong with all of us. I just listened a half hour of everybody being sick. Coral calcium, gentlemen, and menthol behind the ears will kill…colds—any menthol behind the ears every night. [Joe] My comment was, in other words, if the pictures were taken and the lady’s not there to validate that she took them then the pictures are inadmissible and I think that’s what Howard would say. [Greg] Ok, what about these complaints, the four on one charge and the four on another. They all got her name and the humane society in the complaint of Ohio. [caller] [Joe] Ask her to appear. Well, she’s not there and I think Howard just said that to you earlier.

[Howard] Yeah, they have to be validated by her as true and correct and she has to make a statement that she had first hand knowledge.

[Jim]

If there’s no plaintiff there there’s no standing—correct?

[Howard] Well, there wasn’t any standing to start with. It’s private property. The government’s regulations and rules apply inside of government. They don’t apply to private property. That’s why I said to him, ‘use discovery and ask them if they paid for the dogs.’ If they paid for them then it’s their property—they got a right to regulate it. If they can’t prove that they paid for it then it’s your property and they don’t have any right to regulate it. I don’t mind killing people. It’s animals I like to protect and take care of and feed. [Greg] I’m with you a hundred percent, Howard, I’ve had over a hundred dogs since I’ve been out there, forty-one years and I’ve got scrap and storage. And the last two or three years when scrap jumps up all the Chinese are buying our scrap going high, two or three hundred dollars a ton. They shot six of my dogs. They shot two in the last two months because I’m down to ten dogs only and now, the plea agreement, I got to give up all dogs but I got to pay all costs. The original prosecutor who was sitting in the corner beside the prosecutor, I sort of waved my ear with the little finger sticking up. It wasn’t directly at her but letting them know. When I walked out I told the special prosecutor I’m getting all my dogs back one way or another and I walked out. Now, I didn’t threaten, I just made a statement. But you’re telling me how to do it. Use rules of discovery and ask them, ‘did they pay for these dogs, did they pay for the food, and if not they’re my dogs, I want them back. [Howard] That’s right, they’re part of the property.

[Greg] They were definitely on my property. They did not have a search warrant either and when I mentioned this that they violated my four Constitutional rights—Jim told me about all this stuff—and the 14th they just cried, you could hear a pin drop. Nobody said anything. And then the judge butted in and he said, ‘well, that’s why we’re going to make a plea agreement. When she read the plea agreement I’m a whore and they’re going to get—I pay and they get everything. No, no, no. So, the judge said, ‘well, you better get everything —we’re going to have a trial real quick’—and the starts cutting me down. Four months ago they demanded I go for a competency test, about sixty miles away in Youngstown, Ohio—I wouldn’t go. I wouldn’t go; I kept listening…then finally, the judge’s bailiff called me up and she said if I don’t go the end of January and make an appointment they will have me arrested. I said, ‘what’s the charge?’ She says, ‘contempt of court and obstruction of justice’, and she said, ‘your lawyer’s got the order.’ I broke down and I…I went and took the test. When I called the lawyer, I said, ‘where’s the copy of the order,’ he acted dumb. But they got me proven competent. So, like Jim said, I shouldn’t have played their game, but in one way I’m competent so now you’re telling me I could use rules of discovery. If they didn’t pay for the dogs, they didn’t pay for the food give me my dogs,’ when we go this Wednesday to this plea agreement—right? [Howard] Well, you start arguing private property you’re going to show them just how competent your really are and just how impotent they are.

[Greg] [Howard] [Henry]

I’m going to keep saying private property and they trespassed—right? Um huh. Don’t forget they stole your dogs.

[Greg] Yeah, I’ve been saying this for eight months. In the paper they defamed me. I made the front page. They took my dogs August 22 and lo and behold we’re dealing with angels here. They said my dogs were starving…and within three weeks they had another article on page two that now the starving sickly dogs are healed. I must be dealing with angels here. They just touch a dog to be miraculously cured and anything I say is garbage but what they say, they defame me, they stole my property. They stole it private property. When I was there this little so-called cop—I got nothing against the cop—but he told me to my face, ‘we’re taking your dogs, you got a problem?’ I said, ‘don’t go on my property.’ And when he handed me a complaint, not a search warrant, a complaint he even looked and his pants were full of shit, he figured what the hell’s he going to do? I wouldn’t open the gate. He said, ‘you going to open the gate?’ I told him, ‘I don’t understand English,’ and I walked away from him. The one punk kid, about eighteen year old, jumped my fence and he found the five pups—I had them fifty yards in the woods. Then my main dog, Brownie, she’s half pit bull, half wolf, she was going to help me and they grabbed her and I said, ‘don’t fight,’ because two cops are standing there and then after, they couldn’t get my other dogs because I got them trained. I yelled and they ran in the woods and he said, ‘we’re getting all your dogs.’ I haven’t seen them since except the so-called Humane Society came around and she took pictures of whole place. I got it like a fortress. And I’m looking at her and she’s taking pictures running up on the street and then lo and behold four months go by and she’s gone. [Jim] This individual that took the pictures, is it possible to take these people or ….or individuals to court and sue them for rental of private property, namely the pictures, for about $2,500 a week? [Howard] I don’t know if I’d go in that direction but the pictures will be evidence of their trespass. [Jim] [Howard] [Jim] Washington. I understand that but it is his house, therefore it would be his pictures. Well, under trespass. It’s been done before, Howard, and they won, $15,025 by David Myrland in

[Howard] I have found a couple of cases about taking pictures and using them without the person’s permission.

[Jim] The second item is this story is nothing new, it is prevalent across the country and an individual named Carol Murphy has gone through almost exactly the same thing as this fellow has described, all except they cut the head of her horse off and killed a few of the animals on site. She has put up a diligent battle in court. She is roughly sixtyeight years old, I think—between sixty and sixty-eight. She has been now been trespassed on. They arrested her, took her out of her house, she lost her house. She’s been in jail under contempt of court and a competency hearing—she’s been in jail for about 160 days now. [Greg] [Jim] [Howard] [Greg] On what charges? There are none. Well, contempt of court. She lost everything and they’re going to get away with this.

[Jim] Well, nobody’s coming up behind her. So just be aware that this is nothing new. This is wide across the country. Carol was part of a group helping people fight in this type of action with the animal rights group throughout the country, not just in her state. [caller] [caller] [Howard] Welcome to Germany. Yeah. Yeah, Communist Russia was better than this.

[Jim] Now, the question I would ask you would be, ‘why are they interested in you specifically, do you have a license for the dogs? [Greg] [Jim] [Greg] [Jim] [Jim] [Jim] [Howard] [Jim] [Greg] I’ve got a kennel license. Ok, by who? By the county of Ashtabula. Are you subject to any rules, guidelines or laws, are you a corporation? No, I’m a self-employed… So you have a license. Yeah, a kennel license. From the county? Yes, a kennel license to have the dogs.

[Jim] [Howard] [Jim]

Are the dogs licensed? Yeah, the kennel license—that put him in their jurisdiction. Ah, ok—now you see where the problem begins?

[Greg] Here’s the big problem. Fifty yards from me there used to be a train going by. I’ve been out there for forty-one years. Forty-one years ago a train went from Warren, Ohio to Lake Erie, taking raw materials one way and the finished product another way when Mahoney Valley was a big steel booming town. Well, times change. All these train company donated all the lands, Trumbel County, Ashtabula County to the county. Well, they put up a bike way, walk way, hiking way, and a few of the bikers came by and they said the dogs were bad. That’s why this woman said the dogs didn’t look right, they looked starved and sickly. I said, ‘hey, there’s sewers and you don’t know about mushrooms. A dog can eat a mushroom and die, poisoned mushroom. There’s twenty-two different ways a dog could be… [Jim] Ok, so you had initially an individual on a bike path file a complaint?

[Greg] Yes, bikers told the Humane Society that the dogs didn’t look right. Then she came on me. [Jim] Howard, how would he handle that by a person who filed a complaint?

[Howard] Well, actually, the person on the bike didn’t file the complaint. The person on the bike just called in. The Humane Society took over and filed the complaint without any real complaining party. [Jim] [Howard] That’s my point. They can’t do that.

[Greg] Ok, that’s what I thought. And I even told her when she was telling me— only three times I talked to this woman—the first time she was nice and she gave me a bunch of junk for the fleas. Our wonderful EPA took away all the good flea products. Did you know New York, Cincinnati, Cleveland are all loaded with bed bugs, cockroaches because our glorious EPA took away anything oil based. [Jim] Ok, you’re getting sidetracked both by the predicament you’re in and using emotion. I’m not here to give advice but it is better to attack a problem with a level head, a limited amount of motion and understanding. I’m not here to tell you what to do but you’re going to be your own worse enemy if you get sidetracked and don’t focus on the task at hand. So, it’s all very difficult, it’s not easy. I’m not saying it’s going to be easy but it is possible. And if this is your first circumstance with an entanglement with the judicial system, like Howard said earlier, it’s going to take some study.

[Greg] The rules of discovery and ask them if they paid for the dogs, paid for food, I did, they’re my dogs, and then what are they going to throw at me, then? [Jim] [Greg] [Jim] [Greg] [Jim] If I may: if they’re going to have you to a competency test… Already been there two months ago. Yes, but paid by them? Well, an independent agency they sent me to. Paid by them?

[Greg] Well, the way I understood it, they paid for it but when they get me guilty they’re going to put in the court costs. This is what they told me at the psychiatric center out of Youngstown, how they do it. [Jim] Well, if you’re going to pay for it don’t you have the right to choose who it is? My interaction with this is most of the time it’s going to be a negative return. I have heard that people go out and get their own through their own type of independent or their own doctor so they can use it as counter-leverage because you’re in this deep. [Greg] I have been proven by this psychiatrist. But what he got at me, trace of schizo, paranama, I don’t even understand it, traits of being pscho or something. [Jim] By doing this, getting your own would counter and prove as evidence which eventually they could bring parties to testify into court under the rules of evidence. But to have a one-sided case or a one-sided discovery is not going to be in your best interest. [caller] Should he file for a motion of continuance until he do so?

[Jim] The only thing is I’m hearing this and I’ve heard it before. That’s the only reason I’m stepping forward. [caller] I’ve got a question here. How does this situation with the license affect the argument of private property? [Howard] [caller] [Howard] It’s still private property even if he got a license to do it. Aren’t their rules applied? It’s like he’s living in their rules—right, though? Yeah, but they didn’t say that he violated of their rules.

[Greg] They got it here that I confined the animals which another Humane Society…. She said, ‘you used that word, confine, because I don’t confine my dogs.’ And

then they got on there that I denied them food and water. I got receipts, four or five thousand….going back forty years that I do this because I have a junk yard storage yard. Our big time government took it away from you people, you cannot do it. But because I have a scrap yard, an auto wrecking or salvage yard I can use it as a deduction and I have used everything as a deduction. Last year my watch dog reports came in, $2,400 because it was a… You’d get four or five thousand. They say I don’t feed them. I do feed them and I got the proof. But anything I said to this Humane Society woman she hoo hooed and then when I was down there yesterday when I brought up the Constitution it was like a pin dropped—they don’t want to hear none of that. But now that you told me about the discover and I’ve got the rules of Ohio courts—my buddy’s got it, we’re going to go study it—I’ll use that on them. And when I get down there don’t consent to either guilty or not guilty—true, Howard? [Howard] Right.

[Jim] How about bring the people that are hearsay…application evidence producing, whoever they may be, an attorney or the Humane Society, write them in as witnesses either for or against. [Greg] The veterinarians, they’re against me.

[Jim] I understand, but if you put them on your particular lawsuit you can then therefore not cross examine them but directly examine them. If you don’t the judge may disallow you cross examination. [Greg] But this way if I subpoena him I can cross examine him.

[Jim] If you put him down on your documentation as a witness I have heard that the strategy such as that is applicable. [Howard] [caller] [Jim] [Howard] Um huh. So, they’d be a witness for him? Yes. Yeah.

[Jim] Otherwise they’ll disallow your cross examination. This judge by the sound of it is not going to let any evidence into the court that he’s going to present. So what people have done in the alternative is file it in the public. [Joe] Hey, are there any other people that pass your place that you know and they know how you treat your dogs? You could at least use them as witnesses also.

[Greg] Yes. The guy that does the roads, the roadman. His name is Jason. I’ve known him for four years. He said he’d gladly come. The woman who rides the horses… [Jim] [Greg] Does he work for the town? The township—yes.

[Jim] Hm, I would be careful or cautious. If they pressure him he might change his testimony because he’s worked for them. [Greg] I know this. And then the mail man which is the government worker, he’s says he’s never seen me do any of these things and the woman that rides a horse by and then I had other people like you people I talked to I don’t even know and they said they’d come be my witnesses. So what do you suggest, get as many witnesses as I can? [Howard] Yes.

[Jim] Be careful because people are easily succumbed to outside pressure. So, unless they step forward voluntarily and would like to start with an affidavit and sign it under penalty of perjury you’re going up a hill like pushing a rope. The courts are not nice. [Greg] No. I found that out yesterday. Any time I said anything and then the judge made a comment that I could see why now we had this man be competency tested. I wanted to say, ‘well, you’re a drunk,’ but then would they get me for, slandering a judge? He could slander me but I couldn’t slander him back? Everybody knows he’s a drunk. [Howard] Yeah, you’re right.

[Joe] Howard, here’s where more of the education comes in where they say nobody else knows anything. [Howard] Yep.

[Jim] Howard, when he goes into court and they bring these two veterinarians he should be objecting to there being a witness. They don’t have personal knowledge and they would have to prove they had personal knowledge of the case otherwise they would be under that hearsay and it would be irrelevant, is this true? [Howard] [caller] [caller] about…? Probably. They’re going to examine the dogs, not the property. They have those dogs there to prove that they had personal knowledge

[Jim] I understand where you’re coming from. You’re dealing with people who are not honest and it doesn’t matter if they even examine them or not. [caller] Well, under the rules of evidence it would be hearsay and he should be objecting to them even speaking in that court—right? [Howard] I don’t know if it would be hearsay. The question would be, when did they examine them? If they examine them right away when they were first abducted then they might know something. If they didn’t examine them for three or four weeks then the situation had changed. [caller] Well, Howard, I would agree with you…that they would have to be able to prove in that court that they actually had done these things and how would they prove that they examined them? [Jim] They don’t have to prove it. All they have to do is write it down. The effect of presumption overrides common sense, logic and the rules of court. [Howard] But again, it’s back to the date that they abducted the dogs and the date that these veterinarians got around to looking at them. [Greg] They did the same….the 22nd of August, the last year.

[Joe] If you feel that this judge is so much against you why couldn’t you try to find out, if it comes to a hearing, get it moved to another courtroom somewhere else. [Greg] [Joe] [Howard] venue. That’s what I was thinking—change the venue? Yeah, change the venue. Yeah, it’s evident you can’t get a fair trial in this jurisdiction so change the

[Greg] Yeah…because he was slandering me and cutting me down. He said, ‘I can see,’ and he kept siding with this lawyer that wants more money from me because he’s just one of them and it was like four against one yesterday and I said, ‘what do I owe you, another forty?’ He said, ‘oh, you owe me a lot of money,’ so I quit dumping. Now, I figured he could chase me if wanted to chase me. [Joe] character? [caller] [Greg] What about putting a lawsuit in against this judge for defamation of your Exactly. That’s what I was thinking but…

[Howard] If the judge participates in this then he becomes one of the trespassers so go after the whole crowd of them, the attorney, the Humane Society jerks and the judge. [Greg] …he’s bringing up private property trespassing and go read whatever I could find about trespassing. [Howard] [Greg] [Howard] [Greg] Yep. That’s the whole key, right there, I see. Yep, that’s the key. And then everything else. If it fails then I got to get this other stuff going.

[caller] And also, the attorney you hired, the judge and the so-called prosecutor or commonwealth, all of them work for the BAR association and the judge cannot practice law across the bench. [Greg] Ok, right, he’s supposed to be neutral.

[Howard] He’s supposed to be. He’s not supposed to be telling you that he’s going to arrange a plea bargain…. [Greg] What he did, he wanted to hire my old crummy lawyer and I said, ‘what, as an advisor, a public defender or an attorney?’ And he said, ‘whatever.’ I said, ‘I don’t want him then.’ I told them right in court, ‘I don’t want him.’ Then I sent letters, ‘I don’t want him and he will not be welcome.’ [caller] [Greg] May I ask you a question, sir? What’s your name, if I may ask? Gregory.

[caller] When you went to court did you make an appearance or did you make a special appearance? [Greg] I’ve been going to court twice a month for the last eight months.

[Howard] It doesn’t matter, you’re off on a patriot bunch of bull crap. Special appearance has been abolished fifty years ago or more in the rules, maybe seventy years ago in the rules of court—special appearance was abolished. The question is whether he made an appearance or not. You make an appearance by either admitting to what they’re claiming or by denying what they’re claiming. Either way, you make an appearance. The way to avoid an appearance is to not consent. Now, you’re not arguing with them. [Robin] May I please make a statement,? Hi, Mr. Griswold, this is Robin.

[Howard]

I recognized your voice.

[Robin] You’re missing the possibility of them calling you crazy and sending you to a psychiatrist and all that nonsense. If the judge was to appoint you an attorney and you don’t want the attorney, don’t just say you don’t want him because they can say you’re crazy, you don’t realize what you’re doing.’ What you should do is, when that attorney is in court with you in front of that judge you ask that judge, you ask that attorney directly, ‘will you not consent to these proceedings,’ and that attorney will tell you, ‘I cannot consent to these proceedings,’ then you ask him why. And he’ll tell you because he works with the judge. And then you tell the judge, ‘do you see, your honor, I can’t find competent council,’ period. That way they can’t say you’re crazy. [Joe] Well, the other thing that you should bring up, too, is that corpus juris secundum, it’s book seven where it says that the lawyer’s duty is to the court and not his client.’ [Robin] Well, let the attorney tell you that in front of the judge.

[Howard] Yeah. When an attorney says, ‘I can’t do what you want done, I have to do what the court says,’ then he’s biased. [Greg] I got to ask him if he will not consent?

[Howard] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, everybody stop just a minute. Didn’t understand what she said. She said, ‘ask the attorney to plead that you don’t consent. [Greg] Oh, I see, he’s got to plead for me no consent.

[Howard] That you don’t consent, he’s got to present that to the court. Well, he won’t do that. Well, evidently then, he’s on the court side so he’s biased. I don’t want that goofy bastard. [Greg] consent? If they assign a court attorney I just ask him, will he plead for me no

[Robin] You ask the attorney that directly; you don’t ask the judge. You ask the attorney in front of the judge. That lessens the effect of them calling you crazy. [Greg] Will he plead for me, ‘no consent’, and right there in the court and if he says, ‘no,’ then I say, ‘well, I can’t get a competent lawyer.’ I get it now. I got to ask him to plead for me no consent. [Howard] Right—right.

[Robin] No, no, don’t use the word, plead, that’s their word. Don’t use that word, plead. Just ask the attorney ‘will you not consent to these proceedings,’ period, and watch what he says. [Howard] Yeah, ‘will you not consent to these proceedings for me?’ Of course, he won’t. He’s got to get you to consent. That’s his job. Of course he won’t do that. Well, you show him then he’s not competent. [caller] Howard, there is a particular phrase that we have run across several times and used on this call and that is in the documentation from the rights group from www.peoples-rights.com but I can’t remember what it is. Would that be applicable at this point in time? [Howard] argument… What was the phrase, something to the effect that you’re presenting

[caller] ‘I am mistaken. If you think I have consented at any time in the past, present or future,’ something along those lines. [Howard] Yeah, first of all, they’re assuming and making allegations that there’s nothing in evidence to prove—that’s one of the important statements to make. And the other one is that if it appears at any time that I consented that it was never my intention to consent to any of this proceeding. [Robin] [Howard] [Joe] Put it in an affidavit form and read it out loud to put it on record. And they are always assuming facts that are not in evidence. If this is a lower court it’s not going to be a court of record.

[Howard] It doesn’t matter. I don’t know who thinks that’s so damned important. That’s a big bullshit thing going around the patriot community again. They come up with these damned fool things and make big stuff out of them… [Joe] Excuse me, now Howard, what I mean by that is if he wanted to get a transcript of it it’s not there because they don’t keep one in the lower courts. [Howard] Well, the thing to do is to beat them in the lower court, don’t worry about the fact that there’s no record. [Joe] Ok, alright.

[Greg] Sounds real good, Howard. I’m just going to go in there Wednesday and I’m just going to tell them, ‘you people trespassed and I’m going to no consent to these proceedings.’

[Howard] And let them know that you intend to file a complaint for trespassing into everyone of them that’s been involved in this. You might even ask them right there in the court instead of waiting for discovery time if they paid for the dogs and if they paid for the dog’s food up until the time that they took the dogs from you. [Greg] Yeah, I get it.

[Howard] ‘well, no, we didn’t.’ ‘Well then, who did?’ ‘Well, I guess you did.’ ‘Well, if I did then they’re my private property—you stole my private property.’ [Greg] Real good. I like that.

[Joe] One other thing maybe, if you let them come to the point where you’re going to sue them, find out their home addresses and send the paperwork or have somebody serve them at their home because this way you’re attacking them in their private location—let them feel how it feels. [Howard] You know what, I don’t agree with that. That will get them all excited that you’re some kind of a terrorist and you’re going to go to their home and do them harm. [Joe] But didn’t they come to his home?

[Howard] Yeah, they did, but their home is where they work. Sue them at the address where they work. Sue them personally but sue them at the address where they work. [Joe] You mean serve them where they work?

[Howard] And sue them at the address where they work. Don’t go looking for their home address yet. Now, once you get a judgment then you can bring them into court and get them to consent to tell you where their home address is and how much money they got in the bank and do they have any silverware in the drawer at home or any other valuable items. You can use discovery like that to find out what they’ve got so that you can send the sheriff over to take what they got and sell it in order to collect the judgment. [Greg] Four years ago on my property in Rome—I have like I say, scrap, junk, salvage. I’ve been doing this for forty years. The health inspectors came out and they sued me so I went to one lawyer. He said, ‘I want $3,500 to defend you.’ I didn’t have a dime. What can a junk man make? I’m sixty-five years old and I’m on my way out. So I went to another lawyer. He wanted $4,200. So, I said, ‘the hell with them all.’ So I went to court myself and as I’m going to court I heard, like I heard on the radio here, Rush Limbaugh came and said that he heard a guy up in Oregon that they were messing with him and private property and he told them he was going to sue them all and they laughed at him. They came and took his property. He ended up suing them for $1,500,000 and the reason was because you can use your property—it’s in the Constitution—to work on, just like you mentioned about sue these people where they work. Well, my property is my place of employment and when I brought this out to the judge he said, ‘you going to make a

Constitutional issue out this. There’s me, him, the prosecutor and that was on there. I said, ‘of course, I am.’ He said, ‘well, we just want to make sure that everything is up to date.’ They came two hours later and took pictures and I never heard from them again. From what I heard, they expect to file it on me twice but they never went any more on a higher court than the one I’m in now. I’m in the western side of Ashtabula and this was on the eastern side where the Health Department was and every time I get a letter that all charges have been dismissed because I brought up the Constitution and Jim, my buddy, told me about the Constitution. I’m sixty—I never read it till a year ago. And because of that Constitution, I brought it up in court yesterday. We’re all stunned but I didn’t know enough till now I talked to you, Howard. I’m going to bring up this private property, you’re trespassing. I’m going to say, ‘I’m not consenting to these proceedings and I intend to sue each and every one of you till I get my property back. And then when I’m asking, ‘did you pay for the dogs, did you feed the dogs before this happened?’ ‘No.’ ‘Well, whose dogs are they,’ and then we’ll go from there. Right? [Robin] on what? [Greg] Please excuse my ignorance but which part of the Constitution did you use, The Fourth.

[Howard] He was using the Fourth Amendment because they took them without a search warrant. [Greg] And the 14th about due process. They did not give due process. And the one I used four or five years ago and I could use my property, I looked and I don’t know where that’s in the Constitution but it’s in there. You can use your property to earn a living, it’s a Constitutional right. [Howard] Well, that’s the Fifth Amendment. They can’t take private property for public use without just compensation. They got to pay you if they want to use your property. [Greg] What about if I use my property. Is the same thing in there?

[Howard] If they got to pay you in order to use your property then evidently you can use your property without them being able to do anything. [Greg] Ok, because I looked and now you straightened me out. I just used it yesterday in court and like I said, when I finished they were all stunned, they just stood there and my lawyer just smiled and then the judge insisted on having him be my advisor, my lawyer, my public defender, I’m going to ask him, ‘will you not consent to these proceedings?’ If he says, ‘no,’ I’ll say he’s not competent. Now, I ask each and everyone they put in front of me—right? [Howard] Yep.

[Greg] and…

Real good, Howard, this is great. Then I’m going to go read that book now

[Howard] I don’t know who your friend, Jim, is but if he knows me have him get in touch with me… [Greg] Oh, he was just on the phone. Jim, are you there? He just talked a minute ago about the rules of evidence… [Jim] I’m here. I was teaching him about rule 512A and B in Pennsylvania and 321 about the plaintiff not being present and Rule 602 of not having personal knowledge of a case and that backs up 8036. All these things have to be certified by this witness. And any of the documentation that they might try to put into evidence, 901, 902, 1002, which is the best evidence rule and 1003 where you raise the question and object to them entering any of this evidence, any of these documents, into evidence unless they’re original documents, they’ve been certified. I told him to get this Rules of Evidence and Rules of Ohio Court. And that’s the way I’ve been trying to… Now, he’s got a court date coming up and I told him that they have no standing and there’s no plaintiff present and they’re not allowed to bring in a third-party prosecutor. I’m with Dianne with Mickey Paoletta’s group. So this is the stuff I’ve been telling him to do. [Howard] Ok, well you’re on-track because it doesn’t just apply to debt collection, it applies to all these other kinds of cases too. [Jim] And that’s where I learned this from you now. I’m the one who told you I got that agency nightmare and I haven’t been able to have time to call you and I’m trying to learn some stuff. I got a big… With Les and all that, I was talking to him with our little problem we’re having. I’ve got to make up this cross motion of objection to summary judgment and it’s thirty-eight, forty pages and I’ve been sitting for four days trying to figure out how am I going to do this so I’m getting some good practice from all you great people. Howard, I love the stuff that you’re doing and when I heard your number I butted in and got your phone number for this Thursday nights and I told Greg to call in tonight. [Greg] Can I ask one more question? Now, they got me on these eight counts. These are the original complaints against me. In court could they pull more out-the-hat baloney on me? [Howard] Oh, they do that sometimes but they’re not supposed to.

[Greg] Ok, so in other words, I’m supposed to just contest no consent to these eight charges, originally. [Howard] Right.

[Greg] ok. They said in the paper that more charges would be pending and this and this and that.

[Jim] This third-party prosecutor that they’re trying to assign to this case has no personal knowledge under Rule 602—right? [Howard] [Jim] [Howard] That’s correct. So anything he says is not permissible in court. It’s a her. A her, it doesn’t matter, him or her.

[Jim] Now, they’re hiding this woman from the Humane Society because Frank’s got a tiger by the toe and they don’t know what to do about this and they’re trying to get him to break down and just go along now. Anybody else would have already been…but we’ve been doing this for six months… [Greg] Eight months it’s been going on.

[Robin] Doesn’t this gentleman with the dogs, doesn’t he have to prove that his property is private classifications of the filing of the deed? [Howard] No, he doesn’t have to prove it. He should eventually do that but, no, he doesn’t have to prove it. [Robin] You can just say they own his private property even though he paid taxes and he has a license for the kennels and so forth? [Howard] [Robin] [Howard] It’s still private property. Should he go cancel the license for the kennels? Damn right, he ought to get rid of that.

[Greg] Well, I got another one for this year. They come every January 31st. You have to renew them for the year ahead, fifty bucks. [Robin] But you don’t have the dogs.

[Greg] I have other dogs. I’ve had up to sixty dogs. Back in ’94 they did the same shit to me but a little different rules and different things and I paid another lawyer $500 and I had my dogs back in five days but I went to this same lawyers and he wanted $3,500. I said, ‘you got to be joking me.’ He said, ‘no… Everything is money now. Can I say, we’re the whores and they’re the beneficiary and we get to do nothing and we pay, like I said, the… The special prosecutor told—the plea agreement was I surrendered my seven dogs they took eight months ago and pay them. I surrender all court charges and pay all the dogs—I have another twenty out there. All my dogs must be surrendered to them and I can only have two and for the next two years some ace will come around twice a month and

make sure I only have two and the condition… In other words, for two years I will be a… stiff to them. And I sort of put my middle finger up to the…and scratched my head. It wasn’t a direct…but I said, ‘never,’ and I walked out past the special prosecutor and I said, ‘I want all my dogs back and I’m getting them,’ and I walked out. I don’t want to threaten them. I just said, ‘I’m going to get them.’ And now, with your people’s help I got a lot of ammunition. [Howard] And if you file a complaint for trespass against them they will not know what to do or how to respond. [Greg] [Howard] [Greg] I should file this right away, Howard, like tomorrow or Monday? Well, you better do some study, first, on how to do it. Ok, because I don’t know how to do it.

[Jim] I can try and give him a hand with that a little bit but I got my hands full. Now, the two federal precedent cases you spoke about, I have those. Those were 2001 and one was 99 about even if you look onto somebody’s property it’s trespassing. [Howard] [Jim] [Howard] [Jim] Right. You got that information that I gave out a couple weeks ago? Yes, I wrote it down. I don’t know what I’ve done with it. …and he can go find it for himself and then print that out.

[Greg] The way I had it secured eight months ago when they took my dogs in August the Humane Society gentleman and woman could not get in. The officer, sheriff Stout, he removed the pallet and some boarding and some wire that I had so the dogs couldn’t get out and that’s when Brownie, my oldest dog, came running out to help me and they grabbed her and then they jumped over the fence and I said, ‘you’re not supposed to help them, officer, you’re supposed to stand here and just protect me and protect them. He said, ‘I’ll help anybody.’ I want to sue him for aiding and abetting—yes, no? [caller] Was that a deputy or was that the sheriff?

[Greg] It was a sheriff. He had twenty-three years at Ashtabula County sheriff’s office. He’s got two years to go and he’s going to be out of this mess. Well, from what I understand they laid off him and twenty-six others. They only have three left for the whole county. They laid off twenty-five sheriffs because these government have spent all our money and they’re putting us into debt which is out of this world and they’re the ones that overregulated us, overburdened us and, of course, overtaxed us and when you say something they look at you like you’re nuts.

[caller]

Of course.

[Greg] But with your information, what should I do with this sheriff, wait till I get to sue those Humane Society people for trespassing? [Howard] Yeah. Include him as part of the suit if he was there.

[Greg] Ok, that’s what I want to… Him and this other, there was two and Stout and….because they were supposed to help. And, like I said, they were supposed, in my opinion watch that nobody got hurt but they helped, they aided and abetted. So, put them in the lawsuit? . . . [Greg] Gentlemen, thank you for this information, Howard, this is wonderful, and I’ll let you know what happens next Thursday. I’ll give you the buzz back and let you know when I use this because I’m going to study the… I got four books, cost me $130, the Rules of Court of Ohio and I’m going to go study what Jim told me and what you advised me to study—I’m going get all this—ok? [caller] Can he serve a Notice of Acceptance on these people along with the licensing offer and tell them that he’s charging them so much a day for the use of his dogs? [Howard] [Greg] Yes, he could. What’s the name of that, Miss, Notice of what?

[caller] Notice of the acceptance of the Constitutions and the oath of office. You can get it from www.peoples-rights.com or 1624 Savannah Rd. in Lewes, Delaware. A people’s rights no tax academy correspondence… [Howard] It’s state and federal Constitution, both covered.

[caller] And you serve that on every single one of those government agencies, police or government agents whatever government they’re working for and now they’re bound by a contract with you, not with just the state. And the licensing offer, I’ve been there, it goes through all the different parts of your private property including your dogs in there and you can say per dog how much that you charge and you can say you charge per day, you could say you charge per hour or you could say you charge per minute or per week or month and tell them you charge $10,000 per day for those pups or something reasonable like $1000 a day and that’s a lot of money to them. I’ve got a question about that. If you serve one of those notices on them and they’re using your private property which is my situation where I am….without just compensation, and you serve that notice on them do you have to do it certified mail and then you bill them? And how do you do the billing process to make it legal. How do you write that bill? Say, this is a bill for use of my private property?

[Howard] [caller] [caller]

That’s right. and then you do the….? You get it notarized, don’t you, Howard, to make it a matter of record?

[Howard] No, you don’t have to get the bill notarized. The only thing you need to notarize is the affidavit that you put into court stating that the bill is still due and owing, it’s not been paid. [caller] right? [Howard] [Greg] End ************************************************************************ Trivia: Last year a snake had raided the wren nest on our front porch in a watering can eating all the baby wrens. The snake didn’t survive the encounter either. We were wondering if the wrens would try next year (this year) to build a new nest so we tried to make some new wren houses that they could use suspended from the porch roof. We suspended two impromptu houses at the front porch and at the rear deck. They ignored those completely. We also built a shelf high in the corner of the front porch (totally shaded). At first the wrens didn’t notice the shelf but after they built a nest elsewhere on the front porch they discovered the shelf. It will be interesting to see if they build a nest on the shelf the next time they build a nest. The wrens built their nest this spring in April in a cardboard box with paper packing material that was low in the northeast corner of the front porch, also shaded. They hid the nest in the rear left hand side of the box, i.e. the corner of the box. The packing material in the box provided cover for the nest and they used two entrances left and right. The male seemed to prefer the left entrance and the female preferred the right entrance. One top flap of the box was down providing a roof for the nest. The front and side flaps were entirely open. You couldn’t see the nest from the front of the box due to the packing material. When selecting the box the male and the female met on top of the side of the box and seemed to be discussing their plans. The male flew over to a wire suspended next to the porch side door and checked us out through the open interior door through the glass window of the door. With that, they commenced nesting. The male would feed the female and then later would bring food to the babies. The female joined bringing food to the babies. And if they don’t return the dogs then that’s an acceptance on their part— Yep. Ok, thank you, gentlemen. I got to go—ok?

Male wren with food for babies –um, scrumptious

Male wren emerging from nest after feeding young The male seemed not to mind our presence at all most likely remembering when I helped to defend the nest last year from the snake. The female was more wary of me but later following the male’s lead lost all concern about me. As the babies got bigger the food came in more and more often. I kept the squirrels from the nest and was successful in that. Finally one day one baby walked over the packing material and could be seen in the front part of the box. The mother came along and coaxed it back but it was only a day later when

it was decided that it was time for all to leave the nest. We set up a camera on the front porch with a long cable release on the shutter stretching into the house. Finally, the big moment came and baby wrens started to move to the front of the box.

Two baby wrens emerge from nest under watchful eye of mother We counted six little wrens ultimately. At various times one would fly to various objects on the front porch with somewhat wobbly flight. Then most of them flew to the bottom of a boxwood in front of the front porch. Only one remained trying to get up courage and to master flying.

Last baby gathering courage to leave nest—Hey, where did everybody go? He flew to the floor of the porch and then up the cable release of the camera and hung on. Then he flew to the generator with the blue canvas over it and tried to get enough altitude to get to the top of the generator but couldn’t get enough altitude and would slide down the canvas but kept on trying. He never did make it to the top. Then he left the front porch and flew to the base of a camellia about 25 feet away. At that point I lost track of him. The other babies had flown southwest with the parents and you could hear wrens calling in the distance. At that point I didn’t see the baby wrens anymore but the next morning the mother wren came back to the nest with a bug and called and went in to the nest in case one baby hadn’t left. As they had left yesterday she emerged and flew off. We hear a lot of wrens vocalizing all around the house so we suspect the parents call the babies for food and are now teaching them how to forage. Before the babies came out of the box, yesterday, the female flew up to the shelf I had constructed and checked it out again. At that point I was wondering if she would use it as a staging area for the first flight of the baby wrens, however I now realize that the baby wrens can’t get enough altitude on first flight to get there. It will be interesting to see if the parents build a nest on that shelf next year.

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