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Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

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Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?
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TruthHertz

06-22-2011, 04:48 PM

Anybody use the Goodchord (Mick Goodrick) Voice Leading Books?
Mick Goodrick (AKA Mr Goodchord) wrote a series of voluminous books on voice leading.
Has anybody in this group had experience with these Goodrick VOICE LEADING books? Anybody able to relate how it changed the way you look
at the fingerboard?

FatJeff

06-22-2011, 05:47 PM

LOL, check your title

JakeAcci

06-22-2011, 05:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FatJeff
LOL, check your title

That's the name. Mr. Goodchord Publications - Entry Page

FatJeff

06-22-2011, 05:59 PM

Oh. Looked like a typo given the author's name. my bad.

whatswisdom

06-22-2011, 09:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
That'sthename.Mr. Goodchord Publications - Entry Page

Looks defunct to me. Anyone have the inside scoop on his activities and on how to get hold of the books? "Advancing Guitarist" is a classic. I'd
love to find out how to get more of his stuff.:confused:

TruthHertz

06-22-2011, 10:33 PM

Yes, advancing guitarist you can still get. The voice leading almanac is out of print with no plans for a resurrection, that's why I was wondering
if anyone worked with them. They were like the immersion language version of sounds you never thought you'd get out of a guitar. He
meticulously and exhaustively worked out all permutations of voicings in cycles, and the sounds are so subtle that much of the time you can't
tell what the harmony is, it's just like shadows moving over a landscape. I posted this because, though they went out of print a couple of years
ago, there must be some people who have worked at least some of the cycles through and use these things in their playing. I wanted to find
out just how it's working out.
When I asked him what the book was about, after the first volume came out, he said "the harmony we know is like the fish in the sea. We
think of all these kinds of fish, all shapes and sizes, but what we know is just the ones that live along the surface. They're sun loving creatures.
Beneath that there's an ocean filled with creatures we've never encountered. These are the sounds that voice led cycles will reveal: beings with
all sorts of things sticking out, strange shapes that move in beautifully unimagined ways. Then he played some and I swear it wasn't a guitar he
was playing. Like Bach chorale meets Stockhausen.
I was hoping with this being a jazz guitar group, and one with adventurers looking for new arranging approaches, I might find someone that is
making their way through those books.
David

12/25/2014 10:44 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

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http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

bako

06-22-2011, 11:51 PM

I have the 1st book and have seen the others.
Mick presents many scale derived chords voice led through all the cyclical diatonic progressions.
I see this as fundamental awareness of the inherent harmonic content of a scale.
Nothing profound or conceptually complicated but I believe that building this type of thorough foundation
can change one's musical world.
Book #1 addresses triads, 7ths, 1 5 7 9 and 1 7 9 11 triad over bass note structure derived from major, melodic minor and harmonic minor
scales.

ronjazz

06-23-2011, 12:30 AM

My very first session with the voice-leading almanac was stunning, opening up the world of voice-leading in a way that the Van Eps method
could only do after months of study. amazing stuff.

TruthHertz

06-23-2011, 03:30 AM

Ah, you are a rare and hard to find individual! For as many people I've met who actually work with the book, there are that many approaches.
Some begin to see the intervals of root movement differently and have acquired an entirely different set of voicings merely from using it. Some
have used it as an arranging tool. Some have created study groups to explore its use in a situation where everyone can solo while the others
can run individual lines individually or in multiple voice progression. All have reported profound changes in the shift from "block" type harmonic
concept to a completely linear awareness of 4 simultaneous voices.
I was hoping to start a sort of running support group of people to use this material (its very presentation in 3 volumes of telephone book sized
sections can be intimidating) so we might report and share the fruits of the collective labours.
I'll wait and let the thread run for a little while, and see what happens. Perhaps if there's interest, a group might collectively share a cycle a
week or something and report back on how it goes. In that case, maybe we might share the prerequisite pages via attachment and go from
there. In this way those that don't have the book(s) might get them one grouping a week via email within the group.
It seems people balked at the price while it was out there and now it's unobtainably out of print. The end of the semester used to see lots of
these being sold by students done with the semester, now their black market value is through the roof.
Please let me know if there's interest. Not for the faint hearted, not for those content with root in the bass drop 2 playing. Yes for those willing
to explore looking at the guitar as a one man string quartet.
David

jsepguitar

06-23-2011, 08:11 AM

I've also been interested to find out about these books. One thing I did find online are these articles written for keyboard players.
http://classes.berklee.edu/gr/mgc_1.pdf
http://classes.berklee.edu/gr/mgc_2.pdf

Billnc

06-23-2011, 12:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Ah, you are a rare and hard to find individual! For as many people I've met who actually work with the book, there are that many approaches. Some begin to see
the intervals of root movement differently and have acquired an entirely different set of voicings merely from using it. Some have used it as an arranging tool.
Some have created study groups to explore its use in a situation where everyone can solo while the others can run individual lines individually or in multiple voice
progression. All have reported profound changes in the shift from "block" type harmonic concept to a completely linear awareness of 4 simultaneous voices.
I was hoping to start a sort of running support group of people to use this material (its very presentation in 3 volumes of telephone book sized sections can be
intimidating) so we might report and share the fruits of the collective labours.
I'll wait and let the thread run for a little while, and see what happens. Perhaps if there's interest, a group might collectively share a cycle a week or something
and report back on how it goes. In that case, maybe we might share the prerequisite pages via attachment and go from there. In this way those that don't have
the book(s) might get them one grouping a week via email within the group.
It seems people balked at the price while it was out there and now it's unobtainably out of print. The end of the semester used to see lots of these being sold by
students done with the semester, now their black market value is through the roof.
Please let me know if there's interest. Not for the faint hearted, not for those content with root in the bass drop 2 playing. Yes for those willing to explore looking
at the guitar as a one man string quartet.
David

I'd be interested. I took a 40 hour seminar with him in 1987 or so. Since I've been back to playing guitar seriously I've finished a review of
traditional chords and I want to start working on his stuff again. I was going to start with quartal harmony as he is one of the few to go beyond
just stacked 4ths and utilize inversions and voice leading that is not just parallel 4ths up and down the neck.
I have many many notes, from the course and about 5 years work after, but I don't want to review. I'd rather have a fresh outlook. I was
really disappointed to see his project with the books is discontinued. He's probably THE world expert on guitar harmony, period.

whatswisdom

06-23-2011, 01:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz

12/25/2014 10:44 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

3 of 8

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

Please let me know if there's interest. Not for the faint hearted, not for those content with root in the bass drop 2 playing. Yes for those willing to explore looking
at the guitar as a one man string quartet.

Count me in. I only have "Advancing Guitarist," though. Don't have the $$ to pay black market but would pay cover price if they became
available.

wizard3739

06-23-2011, 01:31 PM

interesting
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Ah, you are a rare and hard to find individual! For as many people I've met who actually work with the book, there are that many approaches. Some begin to see
the intervals of root movement differently and have acquired an entirely different set of voicings merely from using it. Some have used it as an arranging tool.
Some have created study groups to explore its use in a situation where everyone can solo while the others can run individual lines individually or in multiple voice
progression. All have reported profound changes in the shift from "block" type harmonic concept to a completely linear awareness of 4 simultaneous voices.
I was hoping to start a sort of running support group of people to use this material (its very presentation in 3 volumes of telephone book sized sections can be
intimidating) so we might report and share the fruits of the collective labours.
I'll wait and let the thread run for a little while, and see what happens. Perhaps if there's interest, a group might collectively share a cycle a week or something
and report back on how it goes. In that case, maybe we might share the prerequisite pages via attachment and go from there. In this way those that don't have
the book(s) might get them one grouping a week via email within the group.
It seems people balked at the price while it was out there and now it's unobtainably out of print. The end of the semester used to see lots of these being sold by
students done with the semester, now their black market value is through the roof.
Please let me know if there's interest. Not for the faint hearted, not for those content with root in the bass drop 2 playing. Yes for those willing to explore looking
at the guitar as a one man string quartet.
David

I am interested also. I went thru George Van Epps 1st book and really got a lot out of it. I've never seen the Mick Goodrick books but the
desciption sounds like something I might be interested in.
wiz

TruthHertz

06-23-2011, 01:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatswisdom
Count me in. I only have "Advancing Guitarist," though. Don't have the $$ to pay black market but would pay cover price if they became available.

Great! When we reach a critical mass here (read as: when I have a little time) I'll share a small segment for us all to work on, either post as
PDF to the group or email attachment or something.
Then we can see what we collectively and individually come up with.
More later.
David

whatswisdom

06-23-2011, 02:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Great! When we reach a critical mass here (read as: when I have a little time) I'll share a small segment for us all to work on, either post as PDF to the group or
email attachment or something. Then we can see what we collectively and individually come up with.More later. David

Sounds like a plan. Thanks for your efforts, Dave. Looking forward to some new (to me) Goodrick.

Billnc

06-23-2011, 05:42 PM

Thanks Dave!

whiskey02

06-26-2011, 09:18 PM

I have extra (unused) copies of Volumes 1 & 2 that were gifted to after I'd bought them. If anyone is interested in them, please shoot me a
PM. Cover prices are US $50 and $35 plus shipping. I'm in Florida USA.

whiskey02

06-29-2011, 06:44 PM

The Goodrick volumes have been sold. Thanks for your interest.

e_del

06-30-2011, 05:11 PM

I'm interested in those books too... too late to find them i suppose...

12/25/2014 10:44 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

4 of 8

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

I was wondering if it was realistic thinking to re-write some of the cycle diagrams (at least the major scale ones) in a collective workteam, to
share them in open-source format...

TruthHertz

06-30-2011, 05:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
I'm interested in those books too... too late to find them i suppose...
I was wondering if it was realistic thinking to re-write some of the cycle diagrams (at least the major scale ones) in a collective workteam, to share them in
open-source format...

I'm going to do that. Coming aboard the group?
David

e_del

06-30-2011, 05:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I'm going to do that. Coming aboard the group?
David

Sure :)
Did you already set the specs for the documents (fonts, layout, etc...)?

TruthHertz

06-30-2011, 07:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
Sure :)
Did you already set the specs for the documents (fonts, layout, etc...)?

No, I was going to scan some cycles and share them with those here that wanted to. Suggestions?
David

e_del

06-30-2011, 08:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
No, I was going to scan some cycles and share them with those here that wanted to. Suggestions?
David

Not yet... at the moment I'm exploring LibreOffice as a tool to generate the cycles, and I'm taking the two files indicated by jsepguitar as a
reference...
I'll let you know if I get into something useful...

Billnc

06-30-2011, 10:54 PM

As I said, I refuse to look at my notes for review, I want to rediscover after all these years. I've just written out the quartal 4 note chords in C
with their inversions. I learned the voicings of each chord's inversions up and down the neck. My next step, and where I am at now is starting
with one chord, use good voice leading to work through cycle 2. I've marked off transitions I like and then tried to find some uses for those bits.
Is this the working of of the books?

bako

07-01-2011, 12:52 AM

I posted some ideas and examples that sprang from this thread about the "Goodchord" series.
The first explores what intervallic structures can be applied to any scale degree in a 7 note scale and consequentially be voice led through the
various diatonic cycle progressions.
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/compi...te-scales.html
The second takes the idea of interchanging 4th chords from 2 modes voiced through cycles.
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/compi...ing-modes.html

12/25/2014 10:44 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

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http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

Included in the 2nd thread are Major and Melodic Minor 4th chords voiced in 2nds.
I look forward to any forum interactions around this type of study approach.

wizard3739

07-01-2011, 02:40 AM

good study subject
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I'm going to do that. Coming aboard the group?
David

Include me in, David. I am very interested in anything you wish to share.
wiz
07-01-2011, 03:51 AM

e_del
Quote:

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by e_del
Not yet... at the moment I'm exploring LibreOffice as a tool to generate the cycles, and I'm taking the two files indicated by jsepguitar as a reference...
I'll let you know if I get into something useful...

It just played around with cycle 3 triads progression, and looking at the stepwise voice movement, it seems that there's a "formula" repeating:
Code:
-1
-1
0

-1 0 ...
0 -1 ...
-1 -1 ...

Where:
-1=diatonic movement downward
0 = no movement
is this true for all the cycles?
If yes, can someone post these "formulas"? I't should be quite simple to generate the data with a spreadsheet...
In a couple of hours I went to a sample page (that should be attached to this message.. hopefully).
Having the cycles formula it shouldn't take too much time to generate all the other ones...

e_del
much easier to write than to play on the guitar! :-)
Here is a new, more complete version of the document...

07-01-2011, 06:19 PM
1 Attachment(s)

I hope it's of some interest for some of you...:)

TruthHertz

07-02-2011, 12:12 AM

This is great!. Thank you so much.
Let's take these and start to run them through, all sets of strings possible, as complete a coverage on the fingerboard as possible. And let's
throw in our observations, questions, suggestions and frustrations after a few days.
There are some ways I know this can be used but let's come back with our notes after spending some time on this.
Of course let's all chime in if anyone's having any problem getting started.
Start your engines!
David

Meggy

07-02-2011, 03:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I was hoping to start a sort of running support group of people to use this material (its very presentation in 3 volumes of telephone book sized sections can be
intimidating) so we might report and share the fruits of the collective labours.
I'll wait and let the thread run for a little while, and see what happens. Perhaps if there's interest, a group might collectively share a cycle a week or something
and report back on how it goes. In that case, maybe we might share the prerequisite pages via attachment and go from there. In this way those that don't have
the book(s) might get them one grouping a week via email within the group.

12/25/2014 10:44 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

6 of 8

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

It seems people balked at the price while it was out there and now it's unobtainably out of print. The end of the semester used to see lots of these being sold by
students done with the semester, now their black market value is through the roof.
Please let me know if there's interest. Not for the faint hearted, not for those content with root in the bass drop 2 playing. Yes for those willing to explore looking
at the guitar as a one man string quartet.
David

I never knew these books existed, but it seems like fascinating stuff to me. Don't know how much use I could be, but please do count me in to
any group effort to keep this material alive - it seems too important to let go. So yes, there certainly is interest from me, and cheers for posting
about this.

TruthHertz

07-02-2011, 04:02 AM

Meggy, much of what we do here will have never been done before. Period. That's why it's so exciting. Mick discovered that there were rules of
linear harmony that revealed sounds never imagined no less played on guitar, and these could be learned as compositional tools. He also saw
no distinction at all between composition and improvisation, save the amount of time allowed to do each.
So for each cycle, it marks the root movement. Cycle 2 being a walk up the scale, cycle 4 being the cycle of 4 (or 5 whether you're going up or
down)-like All The Things- and so on. Maybe we'll all focus on a specific cycle or figure out how we want to tackle this as a group.
There is next to no guidance from Mick in these books so let this little group be the research group and let's observe how it changes the way
we see our relationship to the notes we use everyday.
Sound good?
again thank you e_del. Everyone: e_del's attachment in posting #28 has all we need to begin here. Post all questions.
David

bako

07-02-2011, 08:41 AM

e_del's chart presents the Major triad cycles in open voicing.
Harmonically played there are multiple forms for each chord on the following string groups.
6 5 3-----5 4 2-----4 3 1
6 4 3-----5 3 2-----4 2 1
6 4 2-----5 3 1
I practiced each line separately as an organizational method. Others may prefer to grab the easiest form of each chord.
To get the close position triads take the top note of each chord and move it to the middle voice.
Harmonically these are played on any 3 consecutive strings.
There are even more ways to configure these notes melodically or 2 notes + 2 notes broken style, integrating octave doubles and pedal tones
above or below
but the above fingerings are plenty for starters.
To get the other 7 note scale harmonizations do the following.
Melodic Minor-----lower the 3rd of each key. The triads of Melodic Minor are I-mi II-mi bIII-aug IV-Ma V-Ma VI-dim VII-dim
Harmonic Minor-----lower the 3rd and 6th of each key. The triads of Harmonic Minor are I-mi II-dim bIII-aug IV-mi V-Ma bVI-Ma VII-dim
Harmonic Major-----lower the 6th of each key. The triads of Harmonic Major are I-Ma II-dim III-min IV-mi V-Ma bVI-aug VII-dim

e_del

07-02-2011, 09:16 AM

yes, those are the one I copied from the keyboard-oriented article cited earlier in this thread, to test my "generator" :)
Since it seems to work fine (but if you find errors, please tell me), the next step will be to implement all the open/closed triads, and the other
scales
But actually your hints to derive all the positions/scales are indeed a good way to learn and correlate them one to another...

12/25/2014 10:44 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

7 of 8

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

TruthHertz

07-02-2011, 09:36 AM

Yeah, once we get rolling, the possibilities get overwhelming pretty fast. 3 volumes fast. That's why I thought a support group and a finite
quantity each week or so would be a good idea.
When Mick was still writing the book, he gave me a formula and the way to put it together, just as an idea. I spent that summer in the desert
in Nevada with a notebook just unravelling numbers and notes for hours. It was incredibly meditative and amazing. I started to see patterns
emerging about the interrelationships of chordal groupings.
d_del, do you have the voice leading books? bako's ideas are spot on, but there are also other ways to look at them that are unseen at this
point too. That's why I wanted to chew on them a few days before we "debriefed" as a group. I am looking forward to this.
David

JakeAcci

07-02-2011, 09:37 AM

Just wanted to say I really appreciate this thread too. There are too many other things I'm working on right now to really dig into this stuff, but
it's cool to see it's here when it's time for me to spend more time on this type of harmonic thinking.
Really nice that threads like this can exist among all the...others.

e_del

07-02-2011, 09:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
d_del, do you have the voice leading books? bako's ideas are spot on, but there are also other ways to look at them that are unseen at this point too. That's why I
wanted to chew on them a few days before we "debriefed" as a group. I am looking forward to this.
David

Unfortunately not.
(I can ask a friend to borrow his ones for a while, but don't see him often.)
That's why i started to think this DIY thing...

e_del

07-02-2011, 09:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
yes, those are the one I copied from the keyboard-oriented article cited earlier in this thread, to test my "generator" :)
Since it seems to work fine (but if you find errors, please tell me), the next step will be to implement all the open/closed triads, and the other scales.

oh and I forgot the 4-note chords and quartal harmony :) :)

Billnc

07-02-2011, 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
oh and I forgot the 4-note chords and quartal harmony :) :)

I'm working pretty extensively on the 4 note quartal stuff and using his ideas.
One thing in general, Mick has to have worked very fast to accomplish anything. Not all of this results in 'good stuff'. There are gems, I'm
guessing grab these, mark them and move on.
I've also found uses for chords I already know and inversions of those. It is one thing to know G13th chords all up the neck, another to know
inversions of one G13th chord up the neck. Some of these chord shapes while sounding cool are VERY difficult to go from one to the next. This
really helps get the grips together.
Anything I can do to help, let me know. Very cool thread.

bako

07-02-2011, 11:34 AM

When faced with a voicing that I can't play simultaneously, I break it into fragments.
Ex. for a 4 note chord
1 + 234

12/25/2014 10:44 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

8 of 8

123 + 4
12 + 34
12 + 23
13 + 24
14 + 23
12 + 13
12 + 23
13 + 23
14 + 24

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

+ 34

+
+
+
+

14
24
34
34

Etc.
I can be at times a bit of that other word for thorough. I try to not omit a voicing just because it's a bit unplayable.
07-03-2011, 11:18 AM

e_del
The first volume (triads) is on arrival.. :-)
Looking at all the combinations, it's going to be
2 pages * 4 scales * 6 cycles * 2 positions (open/close) * 3 inversions
... wow... 288 pages!
maybe making a file per scale is better...

If someone could write some guidelines on how to use these diagrams, I'd be glad to insert them as an introductory page...
oh, and is there anyone fond of Creative Commons licencing, and all that stuff?
Ther shouldn't be any problem because I'm writing this "permutation exercise" from scratch, and moreover the original work in not available
anymore... anyway I'd like NOT to be involved in any future legal dispute for this work... :-)
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TruthHertz

07-03-2011, 01:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
The first volume (triads) is on arrival.. :-)
If someone could write some guidelines on how to use these diagrams, I'd be glad to insert them as an introductory page...

There is an intentional lack of instruction in these books. You're supposed to just follow the notes and read them through and draw your own
conclusions. That's why I wanted to make this group, so any pre-conceived notions about what you can or cannot do don't get in the way of
what a small group of "advancing guitarists" can share after we've had some time to chew it up.
I thought we'd let the comments of our group provide any further "liner notes."
One thing people have done is play them as a group, each person taking a voice. It makes you listen to the whole, and you get a feel for the
way a chord feels when approached very subtly. Anything you can do with another person will help a great deal.
Also the book most definitely is NOT sequential. You don't go from one to another. You can of course if you want, but the people I know of that
have used and benefitted from it tend to be pianists, and they often say they've thumbed through the book, cracked open a page and played it.
If they like it, they work with it. It's up to us to call one grouping for study.
I'd recommend we pick a chord type (ex: drop 3) a scale (melodic minor) and a key (C is a good standard, and since these forms are all
movable, all other keys should be just as easy.) and work with all cycles.
This gives us a sound, familiar chord shapes and plenty to think of as the voices find their qualities horizontally.
Sound good?
David

Meggy

07-03-2011, 03:33 PM

I've been reading the keyboard articles, and think I'm getting the idea. I guess you can just take a given starting chord, and then work through
the cycles, using a particular scale, and see what the voice leading produces. Then figure out how to play it on the guitar! Am I in the right
ballpark?

Billnc

07-03-2011, 08:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meggy
I've been reading the keyboard articles, and think I'm getting the idea. I guess you can just take a given starting chord, and then work through the cycles, using a
particular scale, and see what the voice leading produces. Then figure out how to play it on the guitar! Am I in the right ballpark?

Yes, even the mistakes can be cool. I miswrote a line and came up with a chord inversion that was valid and I never played before. I thought
I'd worked out the inversions before hand. The voice leading was wrong but I've got a new inversion to mess with.

Meggy

07-04-2011, 03:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billnc
Yes, even the mistakes can be cool. I miswrote a line and came up with a chord inversion that was valid and I never played before. I thought I'd worked out the
inversions before hand. The voice leading was wrong but I've got a new inversion to mess with.

Cheers Bill, I guess I will get started with something before long. So far there has been quite a lot talked about triads - not something I've gone
into in great detail before, I tend to take 7th chords as a starting point. So I'm thinking maybe I'll look at 4 note voicings initially, though of
course I am still interested in what the triad stuff produces. I will be sure to share what I find though, especially any cool sounding stuff, which
I guess is the practical object of it all. What was your cool mistake and new inversion by the way? I'm curious!

TruthHertz

07-04-2011, 04:19 AM

I think there's a tendency to overlook triads because there's not as interesting a sound when we're learning chords, or we think of them as

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limiting. Since a big part of why this approach is different is to hear the voices horizontally, the triads do this really nicely with less juggling.
Voice leading triads are also really nice to play over a bass note accompaniment. When you're in a part of a tune where there's a chord and a
pedal, maybe like the bridge of Funny Valentine, try cycle 2 triads 1 per beat. Try this with a tonic pedal. Does this offer any ideas?
David
07-04-2011, 04:49 AM

Meggy
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz

I think there's a tendency to overlook triads because there's not as interesting a sound when we're learning chords, or we think of them as limiting. Since a big
part of why this approach is different is to hear the voices horizontally, the triads do this really nicely with less juggling.
Voice leading triads are also really nice to play over a bass note accompaniment. When you're in a part of a tune where there's a chord and a pedal, maybe like
the bridge of Funny Valentine, try cycle 2 triads 1 per beat. Try this with a tonic pedal. Does this offer any ideas?
David

Yes, and cheers for the ideas, and I certainly accept all that you say about triads - I'll have to get on to this stuff! I do agree also that triads
are unfairly overlooked a lot of the time (I have books that state that jazz harmony starts with 7th chords or words to that effect) and I have
been guilty of this myself. But I just thought maybe it would be good to have some the team working in different areas, and for some reason
I'm interested to know what sort of sounds/voicings/progressions 7th chords, or maybe add 9 type chords, might produce with Mick Goodrick's
ideas. Do you think we might be better off all focusing on triads to start with?

TruthHertz

07-04-2011, 08:38 AM

Explore! Explore! Explore! By all means. The 4 part chords are perfect because we do use them so much. I suggested the triads because it's a
good foundation to this way of thinking that we could all have the commonality of working on together. But as we begin to explore, I figure that
people will start saying "I stumbled across this amazing sound with harmonic minor cycle 6! Let's all take a look." or something like that.
Some observations I've come across from the voice leading:
- I don't think of the chords so much as "chords" anymore but as ways that voices move together, kind of like watching a group of geese flying,
it's not so much different formations at different times but one group shifting in different locations. In this way triads are a smaller flock. I start
to see harmony in a different way, and my ear also learns to hear harmony better.
Anybody out there work with Bach Chorales? Those that I've known that have, ALL see harmony different from the way jazzers and guitarists
specifically tend to.
- The cycles are not designed to include extended harmony per se, or not in the volume we're working in. There seems to be a good reason for
this: it makes the travel from essential chord tone movement clear and smooth. I'd like to see how others begin to alter the individual voices to
include other harmonies.
- There is more in these books than we can possibly cover in this format, but once we all understand the approach, we can pool our discoveries
and, like you, do our own thing. It's nice, though, to be able to have common material so we can better compare our own notes.
- There are very different ways we can use this to actually apply to standards or tunes, to write into compositions, etc. I can already see it
involves rethinking of the way I see my relationship to chord symbols.
- If your world consists strictly of reading a chord symbol, rooting the chord in the bass voice 5th or 6th string, and playing a chord you're
comfortable with with variation maybe until the next symbol, then you might just find the Goodchord studies opaque, indecipherable and
unrelatibly "un-jazzy."
Any thoughts, answers or questions out there?
David
07-04-2011, 11:41 AM

jcaplan
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del

It just played around with cycle 3 triads progression, and looking at the stepwise voice movement, it seems that there's a "formula" repeating:
Code:
-1
-1
0

-1 0 ...
0 -1 ...
-1 -1 ...

Where:
-1=diatonic movement downward
0 = no movement
is this true for all the cycles?
If yes, can someone post these "formulas"? I't should be quite simple to generate the data with a spreadsheet...
In a couple of hours I went to a sample page (that should be attached to this message.. hopefully).
Having the cycles formula it shouldn't take too much time to generate all the other ones...

As it turns out, there is a specific formula for every cycle. You have pointed out a shifting intervallic pattern, but it is also useful to note how the
pattern can be reduced to a single line if you think about chord tones (i.e. in cycle two the fifth of one chord will always move down a tone to
the third of the next chord, the third down a tone to the root, and the root down a third to the fifth. Since the chords keep shifting inversions,
the strictly intervallic pattern keeps cycling on the strings).

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One of the ways that this is represented in the almanacs is with circles. The most abstract representation is found in the third volume where all
possible voice leading circles are represented. This is done by using letters rather than numbers, it is up to us to fill in the letters with whatever
functions we want. It turns out there are only 6. A related philosophy involving "seeds" can be found in Jon Damian's book.
I've attempted to show this on an old blog entry which includes a study on All the Things. What I find most beautiful about this approach is that
you can unlock through brute computation or what I like to think of as thoroughly algorithmic exploration really unintuitive possibilities which
turn out to be quite beautiful. It's like in the world of chess, where computers have now discovered through the statistical analysis of millions of
moves per second moves which humans would never have thought of, and the analysis of these moves has changed the face of modern chess
strategy. I believe that to unlock a similar musical development requires turning off the ear and pushing forward with the mind, and then letting
the ear hear and become accustomed to what it would never have heard naturally since we're talking about sounds which have basically never
been made before, or at the very least the thrusting of preexisting harmonic structures into such a novel context that they seem to be entirely
refreshed. The ideas of process music and of electronic textural exploration have been around for a long time, but I think the explicit harnessing
and evolving of those ideas to form a powerful new practice method utilizing these almanac reference books to help evolve jazz theory is the
big conclusion to be drawn from Mick's writings. Pretty exciting!
As far as the triads go, the first 8 bars are a good example of how you could unlock them, using open triads based off the thirds as chord
substitutions.
Musical Experience: More Things On All The Things

TruthHertz

07-04-2011, 11:51 AM

Exactly! I never in a million years would have thought of a progression through a cycle as a canon, but there it is! And when you insert a cycle
as a substitute for an existing passage in a song, and you can solo canonically, it can be pretty stunning.
David

bako

07-04-2011, 12:36 PM

Meggy,
Root note-----C---E---G
C--------------1---3---5
A-------------b3---5---b7
F--------------5---7----9
D-------------b7--9----11
B-------------b9--11--b13
G--------------1---3---5 (5th in bass)
G--------------4--6----1 (also)
E--------------1---3---5 (3rd in bass)
E------------b13--1---#9 (also)
F#------------b5--b7---b9 (from G Major, E Harmonic Minor)
Bb------------9--#11---13 (from F Major, G Melodic Minor)
Ab------------3--#5-----7 (from C Harmonic Major)
Db------------7--b3-----b5 (from F Harmonic Minor and Major)
Less usable in my opinion
D#---------bb7--b9-----b4 (from E Harmonic Minor)
Triads are versatile.
First I learnt triads in triadic contexts. Then I focused on 7th chords and extensions and alterations. Later I became re-interested in triads and
also intervals to get at the basic anatomical building blocks of harmony.
I think you should follow your interests as you see fit but it will probably lead you back to triads at some point.
Best,
Bako

e_del

07-04-2011, 12:43 PM

Ok folks, here we are...
I had problems attaching a 3MB file to a forum message (maybe MY fault), so I published the diagrams at issuu.com, you should be able to
download them.
Let me know if there is any problem, as I'm quite a newbie about these online publishing sites
the links:
major scale
melodic minor scale
harmonic minor scale

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harmonic major scale
I intentionally left out index and page numbers, so anyone can order (or trash) the pages at will...
DISCLAIMER: the diagrams are semi-automatically generated, and I didn't check the whole of them
I did some random controls and everything seemed ok, so I proceeded publishing, but please check by yourself too if there is anything wrong
and in case let me know... If you find an error somewhere it's likely it will be replicated on all diagrams, as the template is the same for all...
If needed, 4 notes cycles can be produced quite easily too...
only they have one more inversion to deal with, so double pages (maybe more if the whole cycle takes more than one row)
hope it helped ;)

brwnhornet59

07-04-2011, 01:08 PM

Quote:
As far as the triads go, the first 8 bars are a good example of how you could unlock them, using open triads based off the thirds as chord substitutions.
Musical Experience: More Things On All The Things

Jcaplan, I was at the site. Is it just a lesson type environment? Or is there more to it?
:rolleyes:

e_del

07-04-2011, 03:06 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcaplan
As it turns out, there is a specific formula for every cycle.

Here what I found:
the numbers down here are the amount of diatonic steps the voice moves passing from one chord of the cycle to the next.
Triad voices here are stacked vertically, and here are represented the first threee steps of every cycle.
After that, the pattern repeats again and again.
You find the complete developement of the cycle in the first row of every Chord Cycles Diagram, where notes are indicated as scale degree
instead of actual notes...

CYCLE 2
Code:
(5th) -1 -1 -2
(3rd) -1 -2 -1
(Root) -2 -1 -1

CYCLE 3
Code:
(5th)
(3rd)
(Root)

0
0
-1

-1 0
0 -1
0 0

CYCLE 4
Code:
(5th)
(3rd)
(Root)

1
1
0

1
0
1

0
1
1

CYCLE 5
Code:
(5th)
0 -1 -1
(3rd) -1 0 -1
(Root) -1 -1 0

CYCLE 6
Code:
(5th)
(3rd)
(Root)

1
0
0

0
1
0

0
0
1

CYCLE 7
Code:
(5th)
(3rd)
(Root)

2
1
1

1
2
1

1
1
2

... I hope it's not too cumbersome.
In this kind of stuff the risk is that math overwhelms art... :)

Billnc

07-05-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meggy
Cheers Bill, I guess I will get started with something before long. So far there has been quite a lot talked about triads - not something I've gone into in great
detail before, I tend to take 7th chords as a starting point. So I'm thinking maybe I'll look at 4 note voicings initially, though of course I am still interested in what
the triad stuff produces. I will be sure to share what I find though, especially any cool sounding stuff, which I guess is the practical object of it all. What was your
cool mistake and new inversion by the way? I'm curious!

I haven't used it in anything yet, and maybe only new to me!
A on 1st string
E on 2nd
D on 3rd
Bb on 4th

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We'd all recognize it as a rootless C13 when played E Bb D A on the 2nd fret.
I'm going to stick with quartal, I did a lot with the basic triads years ago. Should maybe go back but when I laid off guitar quartal is what I was
studying and I love that sound, didn't realize how often I gravitated towards 4ths and 2nds either.
07-05-2011, 02:08 PM

TruthHertz
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
In this kind of stuff the risk is that math overwhelms art... :)

It's because of that risk that so many have not explored it, I suspect. It's a dense and powerful tool, and if you come out with a creative
application, it is a thing of beauty.
As far as some ways to use this, I'm sure everyone has noted that a tune like All The Things You Are is a nice example of a tune that uses
cycle 4 a lot. So you might take cycle 4 and voice lead the comping chords on beat 1 and get a feeling for how harmony and melody might flow
in a familiar tune. But did anyone notice that cycle 6 has the cycle 4 chords every other chord? That means you can comp on half notes, voice
lead and on beat 1 you have the right chord. Or how about cycle 7, 4 chords on the quarter note and your cycle 4 chord on beat 1 of the next
measure.
Any other things people have come across?
David
07-05-2011, 02:17 PM

Billnc
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
Here what I found:
the numbers down here are the amount of diatonic steps the voice moves passing from one chord of the cycle to the next.
Triad voices here are stacked vertically, and here are represented the first threee steps of every cycle.
After that, the pattern repeats again and again.

You find the complete developement of the cycle in the first row of every Chord Cycles Diagram, where notes are indicated as scale degree instead of actual
notes...
CYCLE 2
Code:
(5th) -1 -1 -2
(3rd) -1 -2 -1
(Root) -2 -1 -1

CYCLE 3
Code:
(5th)
(3rd)
(Root)

0
0
-1

-1 0
0 -1
0 0

CYCLE 4
Code:
(5th)
(3rd)
(Root)

1
1
0

1
0
1

0
1
1

CYCLE 5
Code:
(5th)
0 -1 -1
(3rd) -1 0 -1
(Root) -1 -1 0

CYCLE 6
Code:
(5th)
(3rd)
(Root)

1
0
0

0
1
0

0
0
1

CYCLE 7
Code:
(5th)
(3rd)
(Root)

2
1
1

1
2
1

1
1
2

... I hope it's not too cumbersome.

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In this kind of stuff the risk is that math overwhelms art... :)

Or simply put for the non-math inclined:
Cycle 2 3 and 5 descend
Cycle 4 6 and 7 ascend
of course this is with the proper voice leading.

e_del

07-05-2011, 06:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billnc
Or simply put for the non-math inclined:
Cycle 2 3 and 5 descend
Cycle 4 6 and 7 ascend
of course this is with the proper voice leading.

right :)
and looking at the formulas, maybe cycle 3 and 6 are the easiest to remember, or to start studying, as the have only one voice moving at a
time...

e_del

07-06-2011, 03:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billnc
Or simply put for the non-math inclined:
Cycle 2 3 and 5 descend
Cycle 4 6 and 7 ascend
of course this is with the proper voice leading.

other "features" i found peculiar in Cycle 3 and 6
- They are the same cycle in opposite directions, one ascending and one descending. Same for cycles 4 & 5, and 2 & 7...
- One voice only of the triad is diatonically moving from chord to chord, but this "locks" the direction on the neck.
In both cycles, to invert the position shift direction maintaining the chord cycle, you have to move 2 diatonic steps for all the voices, and
"magically" you find yourself at another cycle position, from which you can then continue moving one voice only ...
Mastering this mechanism allows to play the cycle progression in any neck position at any time...
(hopefully there will be some similar mechanism for the other cycles too, but yet I'm busy with these...)

Billnc

07-06-2011, 10:41 AM

Efficiency with all this
Here is what I am doing.
Writing out progressions. There will be 7 chords, with the three inversions of each for a total of 28 chords in the cycle (using 4 note chords). 7
chords is basically one trip up the neck, so I will write the exercises as whole notes with 7 measures to the line. So cycle 2 will be up the neck,
reverse the process for cycle 7.
Every day something new comes up, some grip, new idea for uses for old grips etc.
So my practice for all of this each day is
each chord in the key regarded individually up and down the neck, root position and it's inversions.
The cycle I am working on that day, pausing of course for difficult changes and working them out.
I have worked out cycle 2 and 7, four note chords, quartal harmony string groups 1 2 3 and 4. Major scale.

TruthHertz

07-06-2011, 11:04 AM

Nice!! I'm working with trying to acquire a feel for root movement inside of a cycle progression. I figure if I know where and how the root
moves, knowing the chord grouping will assure my fingers fall into place easier. That's the idea anyway. I'm finding that horizontal awareness is
coming on its own, slowly.
I also find switching string groups still somewhat disconcerting.
As far as putting this in a tune, the lateral root movement is opening up options every day.
David

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Billnc

07-06-2011, 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
. I figure if I know where and how the root moves, knowing the chord grouping will assure my fingers fall into place easier.
David

This is why I do the exercise of each chord and it's inversions first. There is also a symmetry between what inversion follows another in a cycle.
This should aid in improvisation and arranging.

Billnc

07-06-2011, 03:41 PM

When I broke these things out 20 years ago I used these systems, 7th degree chords, Triads over diatonic 2, Triads over diatonic 4th, and 4
note quartal chords and tetra chords. I think this covered all the 4 note possibilities.
The 'natural' movement for 7th degree chords is cycle 4 and 5
for quartal harmony cycle 2 and 7
for tetra chords cycle 3 and 6

e_del

07-10-2011, 05:32 PM

Well... I found a few errors in the harmonic major and harmonic minor diagrams I published earlier in this thread, So I removed the
documents...
(there were some double flat, instead of single flat, in some place. Guilty the auto-complete function of the spreadsheet!)
I'm working on a new version of the document... if anyone interested...

Billnc

07-10-2011, 11:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
Well... I found a few errors in the harmonic major and harmonic minor diagrams I published earlier in this thread, So I removed the documents...
(there were some double flat, instead of single flat, in some place. Guilty the auto-complete function of the spreadsheet!)
I'm working on a new version of the document... if anyone interested...

interested

Hernandinho

07-11-2011, 07:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
the harmony we know is like the fish in the sea. We think of all these kinds of fish, all shapes and sizes, but what we know is just the ones that live along the
surface. They're sun loving creatures. Beneath that there's an ocean filled with creatures we've never encountered. These are the sounds that voice led cycles will
reveal: beings with all sorts of things sticking out, strange shapes that move in beautifully unimagined ways. Then he played some and I swear it wasn't a guitar
he was playing. Like Bach chorale meets Stockhausen.

That sounds intriguing. What albums of Mr. Goodrick's should I check out to hear more about these innovative harmonic devices?

JakeAcci

07-11-2011, 07:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hernandinho
That sounds intriguing. What albums of Mr. Goodrick's should I check out to hear more about these innovative harmonic devices?

free downloads here. Really great band. John Lockwood is an amazing accompanist...as is Mr. Goodchord!

Hernandinho

07-12-2011, 12:49 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
free downloads here. Really great band. John Lockwood is an amazing accompanist...as is Mr. Goodchord!

Sorry, I don't see the "here" link :confused:

JakeAcci

07-12-2011, 01:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hernandinho
Sorry, I don't see the "here" link :confused:

Jesus I'm sorry, must be the heat. This has been happening a lot.
HERE IS THE LINK: Casa Valdez Studios: Jimmy Mosher- A True Voice

Hernandinho

07-12-2011, 04:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Jesus I'm sorry, must be the heat. This has been happening a lot.
HERE IS THE LINK: Casa Valdez Studios: Jimmy Mosher- A True Voice

Thanks Jake. Wow! Lots of great music there, I'm listening to the first couple pieces now...

JakeAcci

07-12-2011, 04:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hernandinho
Thanks Jake. Wow! Lots of great music there, I'm listening to the first couple pieces now...

My favorite is Mick's solo on the blues, I forget which head they use. What he does with the time makes for a very exciting experience. It's a
shame more players don't harness the power of that kind of syncopation, rather than just burning 8ths.

GreyJazz90

07-12-2011, 07:50 PM

I have the Advancing Guitarist and the Almanac. I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an
exhaustive document of voice leading information that would take years to get through. I went through a good chunk of it, but other than
helping me learn my inversions of voicings all over the neck of the guitar it wasn't groundbreaking for me. Not a bad book, but I think for the
amount of time spent learning it I could have learned many more approaches concerning different areas of my playing. I also had a lab with
Mick last semester. Interesting little fellow he is...

Billnc

07-12-2011, 09:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
I have the Advancing Guitarist and the Almanac. I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an exhaustive document of
voice leading information that would take years to get through. I went through a good chunk of it, but other than helping me learn my inversions of voicings all
over the neck of the guitar it wasn't groundbreaking for me. Not a bad book, but I think for the amount of time spent learning it I could have learned many more
approaches concerning different areas of my playing. I also had a lab with Mick last semester. Interesting little fellow he is...

Did you get the impression he worked very quickly, finding nuggets and working them out into songs? Even he said this was a mountain!

TruthHertz

07-12-2011, 11:00 PM

I can speak for myself, that the Almanac(s) are meant as a reference guide, and not something that one ever expects to know from reading
them. I will say, however, that the process of regularly working with the material begins to change an awareness from vertical to horizontal.
Now when I solo, it's a lot more chordal and the lines flow a lot easier without being obvious to the changes. I can "feel" my way into voices
better.
If you wonder if he himself knows all that's in the books? Not as a player, no. He's staked out the corners that he likes, worked with them until
they gave up "music" and then leaves it to others to do the same.
In this group, I wanted to "get everyone in the car" so to speak, and start driving with each person telling things they see out their window. At

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some point some of us will take a turn off and if our spirit is a sharing one, report back on some sounds.
Mostly it's just sitting on the egg until it hatches.
It's kind of the ultimate guide to working inside the harmony. The next book is stuff outside. Once that is allowed, there's a lot of places to go.
David

GreyJazz90

07-12-2011, 11:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I can speak for myself, that the Almanac(s) are meant as a reference guide, and not something that one ever expects to know from reading them. I will say,
however, that the process of regularly working with the material begins to change an awareness from vertical to horizontal. Now when I solo, it's a lot more
chordal and the lines flow a lot easier without being obvious to the changes. I can "feel" my way into voices better.
If you wonder if he himself knows all that's in the books? Not as a player, no. He's staked out the corners that he likes, worked with them until they gave up
"music" and then leaves it to others to do the same.
In this group, I wanted to "get everyone in the car" so to speak, and start driving with each person telling things they see out their window. At some point some
of us will take a turn off and if our spirit is a sharing one, report back on some sounds.
Mostly it's just sitting on the egg until it hatches.
It's kind of the ultimate guide to working inside the harmony. The next book is stuff outside. Once that is allowed, there's a lot of places to go.
David

If my post sounded hostile towards Mick's Almanac series I didn't mean for it to sound that way at all. By all means it is an incredible feat of
musical knowledge to come up with all those voice leading techniques and it is a great resource, but I prefer the Advancing Guitarist because I
feel it gives me simple ideas and food for thought to create my own musical methods. Although, after reading this thread I am tempted to dig
out the ol' Almanac and dive back into it again :)

GreyJazz90

07-12-2011, 11:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billnc
Did you get the impression he worked very quickly, finding nuggets and working them out into songs? Even he said this was a mountain!

Haha, yes I did!

Billnc

07-13-2011, 12:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
Haha, yes I did!

See, I was going to a Pat Martino 40 hour course, literally on the drive up Pat got sick again (he was not back, in fact this was before the ill
fated 'Return' record was recorded) Mick took over the course and refunds were offered. I stuck it out, good decision.
Pat and Mick are VERY different, I've met both. They seem to agree on this one crucial point. There are searchers and finders. You can't search
endlessly (well you can but that's NOT the point) You have to find the nuggets that resound in you, work them out and move on. Find
something else. I worked diligently for five years on the Advancing guitarist, and what I got from Mick at the course. You can lose sleep, there
are days you go to bed and wake up in the middle of the night thinking "this works!" Go to the studio and flesh it out.
I attended the course with my brother, all these years later he loves Mick the best as a teacher, because Mick teaches one how to think for
themselves. The downside is you do waste a bit of time when you are discovering nothing, but even in these times you are learning to think.
I'm still sorting through quartal again, but what I see as the next step (I don't know if Mick went there) is cycles through the various 'systems'
i.e. alternating quartal, tertian and triads over bass notes with good voice leading. It never ends!

TruthHertz

07-13-2011, 06:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billnc
I attended the course with my brother, all these years later he loves Mick the best as a teacher, because Mick teaches one how to think for themselves. The
downside is you do waste a bit of time when you are discovering nothing, but even in these times you are learning to think.
!

Yah. A long time ago I was equal parts 1)awe for players I loved, 2)dismay over how much there was to learn and 3)despondent over how little
time it seemed I had in my life to learn it all.
Quite honestly, I thought of all the people who's music I wanted to know and what if I spent years learning one way of playing so I could do it
well and it wasn't right for me. I found Mick after a set one evening and at one point I expressed my fears of floundering, not having a voice,
not knowing if my direction was the right one, wasting my time.
He told me "Flounder! You should flounder. You don't always know where you're going but if you're aware, everything you learn along the way

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will be a part of who you will become." It gave me the encouragement to explore and I'm sure it's a big part of my needing to do things my
own way.
David
07-13-2011, 02:33 PM

Gearhead

Hi guys,
new to this forum. I have all three Mr Goodchord books and the Rhythm books, as well. It's great stuff, I especially love the third book because
it mainly deals with clusters which you can use perfectly in modal music.
Berklee teacher and author Bruce Saunders has a couple of pages from the first Goodchord book on his site:
brucesaunders.com
drop 2 / and closed and spread triads C major.
Cheers
07-14-2011, 06:13 PM

e_del
Could someone also start making a brief list of pieces containing the various cycles, in all or part of them?
Like for example "all the things", first 5 chords of each progression...
Cycle 4 :
Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - Abmaj7 - Dbmaj7 (Ab maj scale)
Cm7 - Fm7 - Bb7 - Ebmaj7 - Abmaj7 (Eb maj scale)

has anyone other examples?
this could also be a way to learn playing them in different keys on the fly (didn't anyone meet e.g. a singer, saying "let's play it in Gb" ? :) )
07-14-2011, 06:49 PM

JakeAcci
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyJazz90

I have the Advancing Guitarist and the Almanac. I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an exhaustive document of
voice leading information that would take years to get through. I went through a good chunk of it, but other than helping me learn my inversions of voicings all
over the neck of the guitar it wasn't groundbreaking for me. Not a bad book, but I think for the amount of time spent learning it I could have learned many more
approaches concerning different areas of my playing. I also had a lab with Mick last semester. Interesting little fellow he is...

I agree that the Advancing Guitarist is certainly a more practical book, but I'd be surprised if Mr. Goodchord would even attempt to say
otherwise - it's just a very different type of publication, plain and simple.
I don't own the almanac, but my understanding is that it's not at all intended to be a "how to" guide for comping or voicings, but rather
presenting a relatively unique approach to searching for new sounds on the guitar.
It's not in a completely different world than Nicolas Slonimsky's Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns - no where approaching 'essential
reading' for a jazz guitarist, but at a certain point if the player is so inclined he or she could glean a lot of insight from the book.
I actually might say that the Advancing Guitarist really is essential reading for a jazz guitarist today - not necessarily to do the whole thing as a
workbook (that could take a lifetime) but rather to see the approaches laid out and use them to help inform one's decisions and attitudes
towards playing and practicing.
Like I said earlier in this thread, the almanac (and the contents of this thread itself) is something I'd like to dig into at some point in my life, but
currently I'm working on things that are pretty separate from voice leading, so putting much attention towards this type of material would be a
distraction for me. I do look forward to the time when more advanced voice leading becomes more of a priority in my study.
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TruthHertz

07-14-2011, 06:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
Could someone also start making a brief list of pieces containing the various cycles, in all or part of them?
Like for example "all the things", first 5 chords of each progression...
Cycle 4 :
Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - Abmaj7 - Dbmaj7 (Ab maj scale)
Cm7 - Fm7 - Bb7 - Ebmaj7 - Abmaj7 (Eb maj scale)
has anyone other examples?
this could also be a way to learn playing them in different keys on the fly (didn't anyone meet e.g. a singer, saying "let's play it in Gb" ? :) )

On the fly? How 'bout flying to the moon?
Fly Me To The Moon VI II V7 I
Autumn Leaves II V I IV VII (V7 of V in the III position) VI etc.
Both of those are cycle 4.
You can look at There Will Never Be Another You as following a largely cycle 7 progression with secondary dominants in there.
I'm also thinking that for each voicing group, there will be one most efficient solution for any given cycle, so even if a piece goes from one
interval to another, you can still find a good voice led choice. You can of course work this out on paper by looking at the path of least leap-age
but getting to know the feel and sound of these cycles should allow you to voice lead naturally by feel and sound.
Hope that's helpful.
David

GreyJazz90

07-14-2011, 08:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
I agree that the Advancing Guitarist is certainly a more practical book, but I'd be surprised if Mr. Goodchord would even attempt to say otherwise - it's just a very
different type of publication, plain and simple.
I don't own the almanac, but my understanding is that it's not at all intended to be a "how to" guide for comping or voicings, but rather presenting a relatively
unique approach to searching for new sounds on the guitar.
It's not in a completely different world than Nicolas Slonimsky's Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns - no where approaching 'essential reading' for a jazz
guitarist, but at a certain point if the player is so inclined he or she could glean a lot of insight from the book.
I actually might say that the Advancing Guitarist really is essential reading for a jazz guitarist today - not necessarily to do the whole thing as a workbook (that
could take a lifetime) but rather to see the approaches laid out and use them to help inform one's decisions and attitudes towards playing and practicing.
Like I said earlier in this thread, the almanac (and the contents of this thread itself) is something I'd like to dig into at some point in my life, but currently I'm
working on things that are pretty separate from voice leading, so putting much attention towards this type of material would be a distraction for me. I do look
forward to the time when more advanced voice leading becomes more of a priority in my study.

I wouldn't worry about digging into the 1st Almanac book, it's pretty basic voice leading compared to the later books in the series. Interesting
thing is that when I had class with Mick Goodrick last semester, he never even bothered to bring up the methods in his Almanac, even though
that is his most well known body of work. I feel like the Thesaurus is a little more open ended and harmonically rich compared to the Almanac.
At least, for my personal preferences, I gleaned more useful information out of the Thesaurus.

JakeAcci

07-14-2011, 08:20 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
I wouldn't worry about digging into the 1st Almanac book, it's pretty basic voice leading compared to the later books in the series. Interesting thing is that when I
had class with Mick Goodrick last semester, he never even bothered to bring up the methods in his Almanac, even though that is his most well known body of
work. I feel like the Thesaurus is a little more open ended and harmonically rich compared to the Almanac. At least, for my personal preferences, I gleaned more
useful information out of the Thesaurus.

You get my point though, right? That it doesn't really make sense to compare the almanac to the advancing guitarist?

GreyJazz90

07-14-2011, 08:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
You get my point though, right? That it doesn't really make sense to compare the almanac to the advancing guitarist?

Yes I get your point, but I don't mean to necessarily compare the two. I just noticed that both books were brought up on this thread and
thought that the Advancing Guitarist was somewhat more practical for your average jazz guitarist.

JakeAcci

07-14-2011, 08:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
the Advancing Guitarist was somewhat more practical for your average jazz guitarist.

Definitely agree.

TruthHertz

07-14-2011, 11:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
Interesting thing is that when I had class with Mick Goodrick last semester, he never even bothered to bring up the methods in his Almanac, even though that is
his most well known body of work.

Yeah, well that was years ago now that he'd written it. Did he get into modal compression with you? That's the big thing now, and a couple of
years from now he'll assimilate it and probably not mention that. "That's your job" is probably what he'd say. That's exactly what he said to me
when I suggested some more instructional way to reach more people with this material.
I'm glad this group is picking through the material. So much of what we "learn" only comes to life when we live with it long enough to have a
revelation with it.
David

Billnc

07-14-2011, 11:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Yeah, well that was years ago now that he'd written it. Did he get into modal compression with you? That's the big thing now, and a couple of years from now
he'll assimilate it and probably not mention that. "That's your job" is probably what he'd say. That's exactly what he said to me when I suggested some more
instructional way to reach more people with this material.
I'm glad this group is picking through the material. So much of what we "learn" only comes to life when we live with it long enough to have a revelation with it.
David

You have to be a self starter with Mick, and if you get bored with something, I THINK he would say, that's when it's time to move on.

GreyJazz90

07-15-2011, 12:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Yeah, well that was years ago now that he'd written it. Did he get into modal compression with you? That's the big thing now, and a couple of years from now
he'll assimilate it and probably not mention that. "That's your job" is probably what he'd say. That's exactly what he said to me when I suggested some more
instructional way to reach more people with this material.

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I'm glad this group is picking through the material. So much of what we "learn" only comes to life when we live with it long enough to have a revelation with it.
David

Yeah he mentioned "modal compression," but the subject he focused on the most was interactive dovetail soloing in a duo setting. So I would
learn a tune each week and have to know how to walk a bass line in low and high registers, which wasn't as challenging as I would have liked it
to be. We also did a lot of playing over different types of drones and use of space (that was actually surprisingly challenging :P )

e_del

07-15-2011, 03:39 PM

my practice book (cycles)
cycles work is still in progress, but I came up with this brief document, that I plan to use during my holidays, next weeks.

1 Attachment(s)

I've done my best to debug it, but still I'm sharing it with no guarantees... if you find any error, let me know.
It's "basic", without all the permutation, voicings, etc etc, but I think has all the elements to work on. Hope you like it, and that it will be useful
for you too.
positive feedback appreciated... they're pleasing
negative feedbacks even more... they let this thing improve :)

jsepguitar

07-15-2011, 03:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
cycles work is still in progress, but I came up with this brief document, that I plan to use during my holidays, next weeks. :)

Looks nice. What program did you use to make this?

e_del

07-15-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsepguitar
Looks nice. What program did you use to make this?

if you work only with note names (this is the case) any modern spreadsheet with the right font (and just a bit of macro programming) can do
the work.
I used LibreOffice, the free alternative to Excel...

jcaplan

07-15-2011, 04:48 PM

Modal Compression/scanned excerpts/why the lists
What is modal compression?
***
I've scanned the introductory comments from the first two almanacs as well as some excerpts from vol. iii which are definitely worth reading for
people who don't own them. It's a little over 30 pages of material.
I'm having trouble attaching the pdf to this post so if you're interested you can email me [email protected].
***
I ask myself the question this way. Mick publishes the Advancing Guitarist in 1987 with the attitude prevailing throughout: go figure this out, go
explore, go make decisions, go discover the possibilities. Why, 20 years later, does he feel compelled to make an exhaustive list of these
possibilities? What did he realize which transitioned him from writing one kind of book to writing what is basically the total opposite kind of
book? How do they complement each other? Maybe the most interesting question having compiled these lists is, what still isn't there?

kambor

07-15-2011, 05:27 PM

Maybe he has received complaints about his book, lacking explanations or something. I still see some parts of the book as criptic, but
sometimes you understand what he's trying to say (maybe too late because you already learn that in some other place).
Maybe he didn't want to try to tell anybody what's right or wrong.
P.S. email sent!

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TruthHertz

07-15-2011, 05:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcaplan
What did he realize which transitioned him from writing one kind of book to writing what is basically the total opposite kind of book? How do they complement
each other? Maybe the most interesting question having compiled these lists is, what still isn't there?

Different sides of the same person. Both, or all of his works are very personal explorations of someone who opens doors, then passes through
them looking for new doors to open. In the transition from Advancing to Almanac, this is very much in evidence. The entire world of the
Almanac comes out of pg.74 of the Advancing. When he began to really explore these note combinations (chord voicings) he saw mathematical
patterns revealing themselves, and repeating melodic germs interwoven in counterpoint. The Almanac is merely an offering to the curious of an
exhaustive collection of findings.
If you may, it's like an explorer in early 1400's Europe says "I have geometric proof that the world is round. You can go any direction and find
new worlds if you take these navigational tools with you." Fast forward 20 years and he comes back with a chest full of maps. He says "These
are the maps of a place to the north east of here. There's plenty more, and this will not tell you about the plants, animals or weather there, you
will have to take some maps and create your own country." So it seems the opposite, but it's really just another door in different form.
He did publish a volume of factorial rhythms too, ways of looking at rhythmic groupings so you could explore phrasing in a permutable way.
That one he did in 1 volume.
The modal compression begins to explore alternative harmonies that don't fit into the diatonic harmonic framework.
I don't think the almanac is to be taken at face value, something to be attacked in any particular order. It's a way for a person, or a group to
discover a way of hearing, and find the pages they like enough to put into your own sound.
But that's just me. I might be way off base. And I'll find something there too.
David

jcaplan

07-16-2011, 01:48 AM

I like that answer quite a bit David! I had this breakthrough moment once listening to Lenny Breau play all the things. He came in with what
sounded like the most beautiful chord I'd ever heard and I was itching to find out what it was and the answer predictably was... not very much.
a root, seventh and third. But there's this sensitivity to space in the way the chords are voiced and connect with each other that is created by
the subtraction of notes rather than addition. I find that fascinating and it's those sounds that I'm most motivated to explore personally (1 2 5, 1
5 7, 3 5 7, 1 4 5) Does that make me a botanist or a geologist or an ornithologist or dendrologist? I've lately been trying to comp entire
choruses on tunes using only one kind of voicing as an exercise, maybe two or three inversions per chord where possible. But the spacing I'm
achieving I owe directly to my work with the almanacs. It just never would have otherwise occurred to me.
I think the less metaphorical way of putting your point is that we're provided with a means to achieve a much higher degree of precision and
specialization, of sensitivity and aural awareness, than would otherwise be possible without these references.
Also, could you be more specific about the modal compression? How is it different from playing outside or using whole tone or diminished scales
and chords? I've never heard that term before.

brwnhornet59

07-16-2011, 01:50 AM

Quote:
Also, could you be more specific about the modal compression? How is it different from playing outside or using whole tone or diminished scales and chords? I've
never heard that term before.

I second that. Also what is dovetail soloing?

TruthHertz

07-16-2011, 05:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcaplan
What is modal compression?
***

There's a new book coming out very soon co-authored by Mick and Tim Miller. It's their work on a non diatonic system called Modal
Compression. Since it's about to be published, might I ask that we give the publisher the right to release this material, and then start a separate
thread on it?
Anybody else is free to discuss or share what they've gotten so far of course, I just think Berklee Press might look favouribly on their author's
material not appearing prominently in an online forum before it's available in stores.
In the meanwhile...
Maybe this is off the original thread topic but very much along these lines though, and that's the topic of hybrid chord progression. This is a
method of grouping chords, not by how they fit into the existing harmony of a piece, but by the tension they convey while converging on a
particular chord, or point in a piece.

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It's a way of playing, arranging, chord soloing given to me by Jack Pezanelli (an amazing player, teacher, chord soloist- plays a duo with Sheryl
Bailey and was Kurt Rosenwinkel's teacher for 3 semesters.) He formulated this with some acoustical analysts at MIT. I happen to be working
on it a lot this summer and if there are those out there who are looking for new sounds and ways of structuring "outside" chords (of which
modal compression will fall) ,maybe we could turn these ideas loose. Everytime I hear Jack play these, or I use them, people always say "Hold
it! What did you just do there?" Any takers?
David

Billnc

07-16-2011, 10:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
" Any takers?
David

yes

e_del

07-16-2011, 11:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
In the meanwhile...
Maybe this is off the original thread topic but very much along these lines though, and that's the topic of hybrid chord progression. This is a method of
grouping chords, not by how they fit into the existing harmony of a piece, but by the tension they convey while converging on a particular chord, or point in a
piece.
It's a way of playing, arranging, chord soloing given to me by Jack Pezanelli (an amazing player, teacher, chord soloist- plays a duo with Sheryl Bailey and was
Kurt Rosenwinkel's teacher for 3 semesters.) He formulated this with some acoustical analysts at MIT. I happen to be working on it a lot this summer and if there
are those out there who are looking for new sounds and ways of structuring "outside" chords (of which modal compression will fall) ,maybe we could turn these
ideas loose. Everytime I hear Jack play these, or I use them, people always say "Hold it! What did you just do there?" Any takers?
David

well... I think everything is explained here
and here what can I say... great masterclass! :)

TruthHertz

07-16-2011, 12:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
well... I think everything is explained here
and here what can I say... great masterclass! :)

Hey there e_del, great!
What'd you think? Shall we make a support group here? Personally I'm loving that stuff. For all you out there that don't have the course, Jack
got together with some acoustical engineers and found out there's a correlation between the amount of overtone "conflict" with the natural
harmonic series and the way we perceive tension. Very harmonically in tune=ahhhh! very few overtone coincidences=arrrgh!!! He then put
these in a lineup of 12 triads over bass notes so creating a 12 tension or palette of chordal colours.
Now you arrange these in place or in conjunction with an existing chord progression and you basically control the flow of tension from one place
in the piece to another.
That's the way I see it. What's your take e_del?
David

e_del

07-16-2011, 02:03 PM

well, first of all the method.. just works! :-)
I think that it relies on the bass/triad fixed ratio,that gives the "flavour", and the top note melody that "guides" the ear, overriding all the
harmonic incongruences (melody wins!)...
I'm not that good at playing these things on the fly, but I used it to arrange a few bars of a song, to make an intro, and it worked perfectly.
It's kind of constant structure motion... maybe just better :)
And I never applied that while soloing.
My opininon (VERY low profile...) is that this thing works when used sparsely, to create unusual tension, but cannot be used e.g. for arranging a
whole piece.
My experience is that when you introduce fixed structures in music (like wholetone scale, or diminished scale, or constant structures, or these
fixed-ratio harmonizations), you "blur" the harmony a bit in an interesting way, but the risk is that after a while all songs will sound the same...
But when i heard it for the first time i was KO for a week! :)
Another interesting point is also that it works for MAJOR triads... I didn't understand if Jack hadn't time to explore other triads qualities, or if

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more simply tis method doesn't work for minor triads.
After all Root, third and fifth are also the first harmonics you encounter, and the strongest... maybe this could be the (unwritten) explaination...
I'm going to stay away from keyboard for some days now... when I'm back I'll look for a little PDF I wrote (I'm better on computers than on
guitar)... if it will pop out in my hard disk, I'll post it.
But in the meanwhile, if you will, have a look at Pezanelli's masterclasses... they really are worth their price...

brwnhornet59

07-16-2011, 02:07 PM

Sounds really cool e_del !!

schteb

07-16-2011, 03:38 PM

Love this thread.
Is there anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area that would be interested in working on this stuff together. If so, send me a PM.
Also, if anyone is interested in selling any volumes of the Voice-Leading Almanac's, I am interested.
Steve

GreyJazz90

07-16-2011, 09:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
I second that. Also what is dovetail soloing?

Dovetail soloing is Mick's term for an interactive guitar duo exercise. Basically one guitar walks a bass line while the other solos, but each
person may switch parts at any point in the tune if that is what is musically communicated. It creates this nice weaving effect if done properly.
What is tricky is that you have to know how to walk a bass line in the low and high registers at any point in the tune. So for example I may be
soloing in a high register but then start transitioning into a walking bass line. To do it smoothly I have to start walking in the high register that I
am already in because the other player will be in the low/mid register at that point. From there I can ease my way into the lower register if the
other player decides to start soloing higher up. It's almost like doing a musical dance on the guitar, you have to lead/follow.

brwnhornet59

07-17-2011, 01:23 AM

Thanx Grey! I really appreciate that in depth answer. Great idea! Wish I had someone to practice it with.

TruthHertz

07-17-2011, 07:05 AM

Hybrid Chords and Jack's Progressions
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
Another interesting point is also that it works for MAJOR triads... I didn't understand if Jack hadn't time to explore other triads qualities, or if more simply tis
method doesn't work for minor triads.
After all Root, third and fifth are also the first harmonics you encounter, and the strongest... maybe this could be the (unwritten) explaination...
.

That's exactly why. The system is based on creating harmonic (in the physics definition) conflict with the overtones. When you start with the
natural harmonic series, it will reveal the elements of the major scale: Try it, the harmonics in the string give you octaves, fifths and then down
the neck you'll get your third. The minor triad is a derivation of the constructed major scale, but it's not in the natural harmonic series as we
can hear it. Think of it this way, you want to make a new beverage (maybe someone gave you 12 teabags they got from their travels) and you
want to be able to put them in some order of mild to bitter on in your cabinet. Start with clear pure water with no introduced flavour- H2O.
There's your major triad. Each note introduced will have an effect on this stable structure. If you put it on a scope, you'd see a progression
from a pretty close approximation of the harmonic series to a wave signature that has "noise" throughout the spectrum. We love the purity of
simplicity, it's what the ear wants to return to. These hybrids give you 12 varieties of tea, and in the end, you decide whether you want to enjoy
the journey from bitter to pleasing.
So here are the hybrid structures:
Most stable- least disturbance- to most tension. I put them in numericals cause that's how I study them. All triads are Major. Use any
inversion/voicing of the triad.
(these are so redundant, I don't use them myself)
Triad/1
Triad/5
Triad/3
(these I tend to study within groups of 3, mild, medium and high tension. It just makes it easier for me to assimilate the sounds and chord
shapes to)
Triad/4

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Triad/6
Triad/2
Triad/-3
Triad/b7
Triad/b6
Triad/#7
Triad/b2
Triad/#4
Now do NOT look at these as functional chords. Don't think "oh that's a rootless -7#9" or anything like that. They are little episodes of tension
in themselves. Jack looks at it like "dialing in a tension" and he numbers each one, so he says "I'll go from a #3, to a #7 and then #11.
I'll take a voicing, move it down the neck in whole steps and increase the tension as I go. At some point I can find a dominant 7th chord that
can be stepped into and that will resolve me back to the tonality of the piece. That's just how I'm using them.
Sometimes I'll keep the whole step movement but switch the triad form to a different inversion. That switches up the sound but the tension
quality is still there.
Let's experiment, ask questions, offer advice and see what this toy can turn into. We can discuss putting these in a tune at some point.
Have fun
David
a little note-when we start to get into spread voicings, or even some of these, fingerstyle is really useful. If you're a strum through player, you'll
need to skip strings at some point.

e_del

07-17-2011, 07:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Now do NOT look at these as functional chords. Don't think "oh that's a rootless -7#9" or anything like that. They are little episodes of tension in themselves. Jack
looks at it like "dialing in a tension" and he numbers each one, so he says "I'll go from a #3, to a #7 and then #11.

That's a fundamental point!
But anyway, from a pure fingering point of view, I cannot avoid to look at some of the hybrids as well-known chord shapes... my fault :)
Speaking with your notation:
Triad/1 - Triad/5 - Triad/3 = major triad with its 3 different notes in the bass
Triad/6 = regular min7/maj6 chord shape
Triad/2 = sus chord shape (e.g. Bb/C at 6th fret)
Triad/b7 = dominant chord with 7 in the bass
Triad/b6 = maj7#5 chord shape
Triad/#7 = regular maj chord with 7 in the bass
Interesting the fact that in these Hybrids you find maj7, min7 and dominant shapes (with different dissonance degree)... this could help getting
into the system by tring to harmonize a melody by moving usual chord shapes, but with different criteria.
Don't think to the function but ony to the sound of the chord while using it to play the melody with its top note...

bako

07-17-2011, 09:03 AM

In book I on the 7 note scale level, Mick presents two 4 note triad/bass structures that he voice leads through the cycles in six voicing types.
TBN #1------1 5 7 9
TBN #2------1 7 9 11
TBN stands for triad over bass note.
In inversion the bass note becomes another chord tone.
G/C in drop 2 becomes
CG
DB
GC
BD

BD
CG
DB
GC

mikeph

07-30-2011, 11:55 PM

Hey guys, I've been glancing over this thread and due to my ignorance, I don't get it, especially the el del charts. However, this might be a shot
in the dark, but this concept might similiar to Coltrane's approach to single line soloing. I read in an interview, that sometimes he would use
triads to create melodic lines via harmony. For instance, if the chord was a C7, he would use a C7 triad, then Eb7, E7, and finish on a F major
triad, all this over the C7. This is probably not what you guys are talking about, but it's worth a try eh?

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jcaplan

07-31-2011, 12:57 PM

Example?
I've been working on something that is definitely the product of a long time spent with the almanacs.
Video, sheet music and explanation can be found at jonahcaplan.blogspot.com
The tune is Very Early. I think it shows how to embellish through passing tones and fingerpicking the kind of lovely shapes the almanacs can
help us discover to create intricate textures out of basic structures and larger intervals. I'd love some feedback.
Jonah

palz

09-17-2011, 12:21 AM

This thread is very nice. When you first get the MG voices moving on the fretboard it come to mind the Pavanas of Luis Milan, the Fantasias of
Francesco da Milano and the explicit geometry pervading the music of J.S. Bach.
See for example how Bach dealt with issues related with moving patterns (the cool crab canon over a Möbius strip!):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x82...ab-canon_music
Thanks for the nice ongoing work in this thread

palz

09-17-2011, 01:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcaplan
I've been working on something that is definitely the product of a long time spent with the almanacs.
Video, sheet music and explanation can be found at jonahcaplan.blogspot.com
The tune is Very Early. I think it shows how to embellish through passing tones and fingerpicking the kind of lovely shapes the almanacs can help us discover to
create intricate textures out of basic structures and larger intervals. I'd love some feedback.
Jonah

Hi Jonah, very nice piece. The start & ending remind of a piece of F. Hand (You can find it in one of F. Noad's books). It falls well in the
fretboard and reads fluent. I guess that measures 18 to 24 could make some use of some support, possibly in the lower register to open up the
sound a bit if the piece is intended to be played at a slower tempo. Congratulations. Have you seen Leo Brower studies? He gets juicy patterns
and uses cool devices on them.

TruthHertz

12-23-2011, 10:48 AM

Free again! The semester's over and that means a renewed devotion to serious studies outside of class demands. The modal compression book
heads for the printers soon and that means distribution to a store in your neighborhood soon. Lots of examples, and a CD with examples and
music played by Tim Miller and Mick. Soon.
I want to talk Voice Leading Almanac and approaches a la Mick.
The last I wrote here, I'd wanted to get some notes on how any of you tackle voice leading issues and how the Almanac plays a role in that.
I'm back into revisiting and re-enforcing ideas in the next month. Here're some thoughts:
I'm playing a lot of solo these days and I'm often reaching for voicings that have root movement in the lowest voice, sure it's the easiest to
visualize but it means I have to get back to using voice leading better.
So let me throw a wake up question out there, how many of you are actively voice leading your lines in a solo situation? When you comp? When
you solo?
I have lots of ideas that will make up my inter-session study but I'll throw them out there in the next post.
David

fumblefingers

12-23-2011, 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Free again! The semester's over and that means a renewed devotion to serious studies outside of class demands. The modal compression book heads for the
printers soon and that means distribution to a store in your neighborhood soon. Lots of examples, and a CD with examples and music played by Tim Miller and
Mick. Soon.
I want to talk Voice Leading Almanac and approaches a la Mick.
The last I wrote here, I'd wanted to get some notes on how any of you tackle voice leading issues and how the Almanac plays a role in that. I'm back into
revisiting and re-enforcing ideas in the next month. Here're some thoughts:
I'm playing a lot of solo these days and I'm often reaching for voicings that have root movement in the lowest voice, sure it's the easiest to visualize but it means
I have to get back to using voice leading better.
So let me throw a wake up question out there, how many of you are actively voice leading your lines in a solo situation? When you comp? When you solo?
I have lots of ideas that will make up my inter-session study but I'll throw them out there in the next post.
David

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are you at Berklee or elsewhere? just curious. (and maybe a little bit envious)

TruthHertz

12-23-2011, 01:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fumblefingers
are you at Berklee or elsewhere? just curious. (and maybe a little bit envious)

Yes, heart of Boston. Fortunate to be there, good to get away!
David

fumblefingers

12-23-2011, 09:30 PM

great school. and well said.

LozRuston

01-04-2013, 09:59 AM

Hi all, I've just joined this forum and this thread being my reason for doing so. I'm hugely intrigued as to your findings/work of your "Goodchord
support group". I've been bashing away with volumes 1 since 2002 and volume since 2003. Are you all still wading through the books? I fully
realise this thread is old and my post may drift into obscurity.

TruthHertz

01-12-2013, 08:57 PM

Hey there LozRuston, I have to admit I don't come around the forum much anymore, not being a gearhead and too busy worrying about not
being distracted from the "hands on." But very good question. Who's making something out of all the voice leading and, what I'm interested in
is, what is the process?
The deeper I get into both diatonic and non diatonic harmony, the less inclined I am to talk about it. Don't get me wrong, I love finding people
with whom I can share ideas, but it seems there is, for me, a huge disparity between knowing what the theory is, and using it as an
improvisational tool to put together a really logical solo where the tools have their place and not for showcasing technique.
So let me follow this bump with a slightly different question, what is the form in which work on these volumes actually takes? How much time
did you spend on the cycles until it began to become spontaneous?
I ask this to those who have specifically recognized a change in their style being informed by goodchord material.
Yes, I've worked with people in a free-improv and over changes who've used voice leading and they're instantly recognizable. I don't know
anyone who's integrated it without at least two months of real immersion. That's what I'm asking: Who's gotten there and what did it take, and
what does it sound like?
What cycles are of greatest use and over what time and meter situations do you apply this? One chord per beat? Arpeggiated? Do you continue
a voice led line over key changes?
These days I'm dividing my time between voice leading (within the harmony) and non tonal sequential or hybrid linear progressions, both of
which I am ultimately working to integrate into song forms.
Anyone out there have any thoughts beyond speculation? Who's done the homework? I'd love to hear.
David

JakeAcci

01-18-2013, 03:57 PM

Lucked out and remembered a Berklee alum friend of mine had copies of book I and II, grabbed them from him last night. I'm looking forward
to digging in.

JakeAcci

01-25-2013, 10:49 AM

I have a process I've started with, going through the book, and I am on the last cycle of triads in C major.
For a given cycle, let's say the first one, cycle 2, I will:
Play the close triads on the guitar
Play the close triads on piano
It helps to play through the entire cycle and sing along with the top voice, then sing along with the bottom voice, then sing along with the
middle voice, but I'll admit to sometime skipping this step - I probably shouldn't!
In my head, I will try to hear and see cycle 2 close triads on the fretboard for all 12 keys, which can take some time. After I do this, I can pick
up the guitar and play through the close triads cycle 2 in all keys pretty quickly on the guitar.
Then same exact process for the open triads.
Then onto the next cycle, close then open.
I've found the more I do this the faster I can get to a point where the cycle is just a sound that comes out somewhat automatically on the
guitar, no matter what key. I'm hoping it won't be all that much more effort with the four part chords.

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I have been doing a lot of solo improvisation that is NOT based on any tune, and I think working with this material will help me in these
performances...to have more of an awareness of each voice when I am improvising chords, and to just have a greater range of material.
I've learned a lot of interesting little things even just in the few days I've spent with these first cycles.
A few little things that have stuck out:
obviously, spread triads are a more open sound than closed, a completely different texture.
looking at keys in cycle format allows for an interesting perspective on harmonic options, going from one place to the other. you see all diatonic
options in a very simple way.
there are three ways to harmonize, diatonically, a melody note as a triad
there are ten ways total to harmonize a melody note with a triad.
register makes a huge difference
being able to play through a cycle quickly, and in different keys, seems a worthy goal. I'm really big on making sure something is actually
integrated into my playing and my fingers rather than just having an intellectual awareness of what's going on. I want to be able to play! But I
think doing work to try to hear the movement without the instrument actually makes it easier to then put it on the instrument...but I intend to
do tests to make sure I'm not BSing myself.
There's always the balance between glossing over a large amount of material and becoming very fluent and familiar with a small amount of
material.
Anyway, more observations to come as I work through. There's a lot of tangential stuff I've realized even just from looking at the table of
contents of these books.
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jeromesteele

01-25-2013, 05:53 PM

I am very interested to read what you are getting out of these books.
I hope to dig in one day myself, when I can find a copy...

JakeAcci

02-02-2013, 02:03 PM

I think the purpose of the thread was to share discoveries made with the material. I've found lots of little things and big things I liked. Here's a
little thing - arpeggiating the spread triads of one of the cycles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSXrmoe_KxY
let me know if anything is unclear.
Could be a neat line or concept for any F melodic minor harmony:
Fminmaj7, E7alt, Bb7#11
I am tuned down two whole steps, to C, sorry, so the example is in concert Db (minor) rather than F as it appears.
I hadn't practiced the fingering for the higher octave at the end so that was clunkier.

TruthHertz

02-03-2013, 08:31 PM

Yeah! Really nice. Are you working with certain cycles or looking for a specific context to play a cycle over?
I really like cycle 6 because every other chord is the pattern in cycle 4 which is so common in all jazz. I get to weave in and out of the harmony
and every other change is just where you want it to be. I'll have to make an arrangement of All The Things with cycle 6 chord progressions.
Nice playing, Jake!
David

JakeAcci

02-03-2013, 09:14 PM

Thanks David!
I am going through page by page and just listening and letting discoveries happen.
Cycle 7 and Cycle 2 are interesting as they are laid out because they have the largest interval jumps between voicings, that was probably why
Cycle 7 caught my ear here - it lends itself to this type of arpeggiation better than the other cycles. Not having repeated notes between chords
is another factor that lends itself to smoother arpeggios.

bako

02-03-2013, 09:40 PM

Yeah, cycle 6 and 3 are the ones that evolve one note at a time.
Part of the beauty of cycles is the timed arrival to a chosen destination,
while integrating some additional engaging sounds along the way.
Cycle 6 arrives at cycle 4 in 2 moves and at cycle 2 in 3 moves.
Cycle 3 arrives at cycle 5 in 2 moves and at cycle 7 in 3 moves.

Toddep

02-03-2013, 10:04 PM

This stuff is fascinating to me... It is reason I joined this forum... I started working with the books.. I found all 3 vol. I just been going through
them bit by bit. I sure been learning many chords and my voice leading chops have gotten better. I'm trying to find more applications of this
stuff and the last few examples on this thread have some great ideas. Nice demo of the mel minor Jake... And I'd like to hear what kind of
ways things like this , and TruthHertz's ideas as applies to ATTYA... Thanks y'all for sharing

Todd

TruthHertz

02-04-2013, 09:06 AM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bako
Yeah, cycle 6 and 3 are the ones that evolve one note at a time.
Part of the beauty of cycles is the timed arrival to a chosen destination,
while integrating some additional engaging sounds along the way.
Cycle 6 arrives at cycle 4 in 2 moves and at cycle 2 in 3 moves.
Cycle 3 arrives at cycle 5 in 2 moves and at cycle 7 in 3 moves.

YES! and it invites crossing the bar lines with poly metric phrasing, 3 changes over 2 bars is pretty out when you hear it, but all
in the cycles. I'd say, though, that one of the greatest challenges is to get to know this stuff by ear. It's one thing to work out
the fingerings (can be a lot of work) but until it's in the ear, it was too easy to lose context of the piece, the songform, of the
tune I was working with. It's like keeping your focus on two things at once, but since it's all tonal, or tonal with a dominant
substitution if you're working with melodic or harmonic minor, it's very consistent within the cycle.
David

JakeAcci

02-04-2013, 09:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toddep
And I'd like to hear what kind of ways things like this , and TruthHertz's ideas as applies to ATTYA... Thanks y'all for sharing
Todd

here ya go!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGPucXM70E0

bako

02-04-2013, 11:44 AM

Building on David's idea (the simple diatonic version) 1st 8 All The Things
Cycle 6 (3 5 7 9---1 3 5 7)
AbMa7 Fm7 | DbMa7 Bbm7 | Gm7b5 Eb7 | Cm7 AbMa7 |
Fm7 DbMa7 | FMa7 Dm7 Bm7b5 G7 | Em7 Cma7 | (Am7 F#m7b5) ||
Cycle 6 (5 7 9 11---3 5 7 9)
Cm7 AbMa7 | Fm7 DbMa7 | Bbm7 Gm7b5 | EbMa7 Cm7 |
AbMa7 Fm7 | Am7 FMa7 Dm7 Bm7b5 | GMa7 Em7 | CMa7 Am7 ||
Cycle 6 generates a 2 voicings per chord option emphasizing various extensions
depending where in the cycle you start. 7 9 11 13---5 7 9 11 (starting on Eb7 Cm7 etc.)
is also possible but moves further astray from a clear statement of the chords
which is a good or bad thing depending on.....

Toddep

02-04-2013, 01:25 PM

Thanks Bako for the quick reply and ideas, I'm gonna check this out soon..
And thanks to Jake for the YouTube link, which leads me to my next question....
What does Tim Miller eat for breakfast?

TruthHertz

02-05-2013, 03:54 AM

This is becoming an exciting thread and it's giving me good cause to revisit this material in a fresh way. Thanks!
I want to throw out a thought that may be part of a larger issue, something that can impart a larger sense of individualism to this ocean of
material: Phrasing.
Because the voice leading permutations and cycles are presented in a, for a lack of a better term, mathematically exhaustive manner, there's a
danger that, taken as is, it can become an exercise; cold and flat. Of course harmonically it's complex and rich, but I'd be really interested in
how people are using this rhythmically.
Too often, especially among the older bebop based practicioners, there's a criticism of modern players for being unintelligible. Formulaic.
Unfeeling. This is due in part to material that is "run" without being sung. Now this Goodchord material is really challenging- to take these cycles

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and make them breathe the same way a uni-harmonic phrase would. The perspective of breathing is different, the architecture of pulse is
different. But some players can make a solo breathe without compromising complex material... and other players are musical machine gunners.
It should be a choice that comes from awareness, not a habit that you're left with from practicing without phrasing.
Anybody else struggling with this issue, either in accepting this material, or finding a use for it, or making it fit into your own style?
Did you know that Mick also wrote a book on rhythmic permutations? Ways of grouping notes with space that can make you very aware of
beat, how to hear and use notes within a measure. It may or may not necessarily be of use, because personally, I think rhythmic sense is a
very personal issue, maybe one that is introduced after the strictly melodic and harmonic ones have begun to become internalized.
Anybody think about these things? Thoughts or musings?
Some of this was alluded to in being able to fit 4 note voices within a space where 3 chords (to an arrival point) need to be covered. Some of it
comes from just realizing that 4 notes might be 2 16th notes, a dotted quarter and an eighth in a series that will eventually make its own sense
of cycle. Who knows?
Just my present fascination with bringing life to these unexpected and amazing sounds.
David

marcwhy

02-05-2013, 07:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toddep
What does Tim Miller eat for breakfast?

Obviously "Rock Star!"
I wonder if he covers any of the Goodrick voice-leading and/or chords (Miller/Goodrick book) in his online school??

bako

02-05-2013, 10:02 AM

Oh yeah, rhythm.
So far I mostly have practiced this material 1 or 2 chords per bar choosing a basic rhythmic figure for each cycle that sometimes evolves. It is
obvious that more can be done creatively and I will take your thoughts as impetus to integrate it into my practice.
At the same time, there is also something said for keeping it simple, meditative, focusing on the movement of voices. Sometimes I play against
the bass motion generated from Finale and other times I like to play each cycle against a drone of each note to teach my ears how well each
chord functions as an extension or approach chord in relation to each modal degree.
I am not as smart and patient as Jake, waiting till I fully master something before I move on.
These are a few things that I think about, have jumped ahead and played around with.
The integration of scale pairs, different strategies of alternating or combining the harmonies of 2 scales.
On one hand it generates interesting esoteric sounds that surprise me in some ways, sounding both very fresh and at the same time just a
small variation off of the 1 scale diatonic counterpart.
I like to add improvised and or mechanical connective melodic content to the cycles.
Another area that I have only touched upon is the integration of different voicing spreads alternating between 2.
A thought I had this morning as yet unexplored, can songs be understood as multi scale, multi cycle collections as a compliment to the typical
analysis methods. It of course begs the question, what is gained by this viewpoint to which my answer so far is I'm not sure.
While the cycles themselves can be used as approach chords as in the example above, another possibility is to insert an approach chord (V7 or
bII7 being the most obvious) before each chord in the cycle.
The integration of 2 cycles.
Cycle 4 with cycle 3 interpolated (borrowing a Sloninsky big word)
I (III) IV (VI) VII (II) III (V) VI (I) II (IV) V (VII) I
I operate on the idea that material I spend time with will somehow organically integrate itself into my playing but you raise the question as to
how to be proactive in this regard. I saw a quote yesterday from Danilo Perez
(my paraphrase) who said he felt overwhelmed initially at the level of improvising going on in the Wayne Shorter band, having difficulty
following the movement of keys, etc.. He said he addressed this challenge by practicing improvising scores to cartoons with the sound turned
down. Improvisation is about being fully engaged and less about executing the mechanics. How to integrate mechanical study efforts into
creativity is a very important question.

TruthHertz

02-05-2013, 10:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bako
Oh yeah, rhythm.

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The integration of 2 cycles.
Improvisation is about being fully engaged and less about executing the mechanics. How to integrate mechanical study efforts into creativity is a very important
question.

Yeah, integrating 2 cycles of course. The flow of changes within a piece changes its intervallic relationship all the time, and with the voice
leading cycles in the ear, it's great to voice lead through a piece, or add a two step cyclic element to the movement of changes.
How about integration of two voicings within one cycle? Drop 2 and drop 3 can make a nice lateral movement of chord density while staying
within a given cycle.
Mixing and matching voicings has a lot of interesting potential.
Wow, so much to work with. Heh, none of this stuff means a thing without a lot of time getting it in the ear. But it opens doors.
Hey try this one: 1st 5 bars of All The Things cycle 6 drop 2. Turnaround of your own doing for 3 bars in C. 5 bars of Cycle 6 in Ab drop 3 or
something even more spread if you're arpeggiating. Turnaround of your choice for 3 bars in G.
That could shake things up.
Possibilities.
David

TruthHertz

02-05-2013, 10:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matildags
post may drift into obscurity.http://flash.eviziotvreviews.com/11.jpg
http://flash.eviziotvreviews.com/12.jpg

?? :confused:

jeromesteele

02-05-2013, 03:08 PM

I really can't thank you guys enough for sharing your investigations into this material on this forum.
I don't have a copy of the books, but I am able, using the foundations Mr. Goodrick provides in Advancing Guitarist to derive the basic principles
of the Almanac... Reading about your discoveries and the applications you have discovered has been very inspiring and provided me with a
great deal of material to investigate in my own practice.
i have benefitted greatly from your efforts and just wanted to know that you guys have a "fan" out there in the jazz guitar internet universe.
jerome

shabazz10

02-06-2013, 05:18 PM

Does anyone have a copy of vol. 2 or 3 that they would sell. Or a pdf? (since it's out of print). Pm me if anyone has pertinent info. Thanks!

JakeAcci

02-07-2013, 09:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bako
Building on David's idea (the simple diatonic version) 1st 8 All The Things
Cycle 6 (3 5 7 9---1 3 5 7)
AbMa7 Fm7 | DbMa7 Bbm7 | Gm7b5 Eb7 | Cm7 AbMa7 |
Fm7 DbMa7 | FMa7 Dm7 Bm7b5 G7 | Em7 Cma7 | (Am7 F#m7b5) ||
Cycle 6 (5 7 9 11---3 5 7 9)
Cm7 AbMa7 | Fm7 DbMa7 | Bbm7 Gm7b5 | EbMa7 Cm7 |
AbMa7 Fm7 | Am7 FMa7 Dm7 Bm7b5 | GMa7 Em7 | CMa7 Am7 ||
Cycle 6 generates a 2 voicings per chord option emphasizing various extensions
depending where in the cycle you start. 7 9 11 13---5 7 9 11 (starting on Eb7 Cm7 etc.)
is also possible but moves further astray from a clear statement of the chords
which is a good or bad thing depending on.....

Cool...Just spent some time with these at the piano...
Expanding on the first example, some form of 'modal interchange' (not really?) by borrowing the first chord of every pair from the parallel

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melodic minor but keeping the second as is. the dominants get melodic minor for both beats:
AbMa7#5 Fm7 | DbMa7#5 Bbm7 | Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 | C7 AbMa7 |
F7 DbMa7 | FMa7#5 Dm7 Bma7#5 G#minma7 | E7 Cma7 | (Aminma7 F#m7b5) ||
it still is cycle 6 throughout, I like the alternation between Mm and major scale to add a bit of tension...I'm sure the concept doesn't have any
limits...

bako

02-07-2013, 09:56 AM

Quote:
AbMa7#5 Fm7 | DbMa7#5 Bbm7 | Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 | C7 AbMa7 |
F7 DbMa7 | FMa7#5 Dm7 Bma7#5 G#minma7 | E7 Cma7 | (Aminma7 F#m7b5) ||

Trying to figure this out.
AbMa7#5 Fm7 ---- F mel min
DbMa7#5 Bbm7 --- Bb mel min
Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 --- E mel min based on Eb7alt
C7 AbMa7 --- ???
F7 DbMa7 --- ???
FMa7#5 Dm7 --- D mel min
Bma7#5 G#minma7 --- G# mel min based on G7alt
(Aminma7 F#m7b5)
E7 Cma7 ---- ???
(Aminma7 F#m7b5) --- A mel min
---------------------------------------------------------------------So, what is the genesis of the 7ths on the Ma7's
Is it a V7 from the relative minor relationship?
Ex. C7 Abma7
relative minor of Ab is Fm and the V7 being C7
The parallel mel min being Ab mel min doesn't include C7

JakeAcci

02-07-2013, 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bako
Trying to figure this out.
AbMa7#5 Fm7 ---- F mel min
DbMa7#5 Bbm7 --- Bb mel min
Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 --- E mel min based on Eb7alt
C7 AbMa7 --- ???
F7 DbMa7 --- ???
FMa7#5 Dm7 --- D mel min
Bma7#5 G#minma7 --- G# mel min based on G7alt
(Aminma7 F#m7b5)
E7 Cma7 ---- ???
(Aminma7 F#m7b5) --- A mel min
---------------------------------------------------------------------So, what is the genesis of the 7ths on the Ma7's

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Is it a V7 from the relative minor relationship?
Ex. C7 Abma7
relative minor of Ab is Fm and the V7 being C7
The parallel mel min being Ab mel min doesn't include C7

Ah, I'm sorry, my terminology wasn't clear. In each pair of chords (Except for ones that are originally dominant in ATTYA harmony) the second
chord stays diatonic to the key center as you had in your initial presentation, but the first chord is altered to fit some melodic minor harmony in this case either melodic minor (minmaj7,) lydian augmented (maj7#5,) or 'altered' scale.
for the E7 to Cmaj7 stuff, I think of pulling the first chord from the lydian augmented pitch collection...so in ionian we get Em7 Cmaj7 for iii to I
(Cycle 6,) in lydian augmented we get E7 Cmaj7#5 for III to I (still cycle 6.) Hope that makes sense. I like the sound.
It's only the first of each pair that is borrowed from melodic minor harmony, except over the dominants where both chords in the pair are
borrowed from melodic minor harmony.
AbMa7#5 Fm7 ---- F mel min back to Fm7 as diatonic vi chord. just a way of spicing up Fm harmony
DbMa7#5 Bbm7 --- Bb mel min to Bbm7 as diatonic ii chord. just a way of spicing up Bbm harmony
Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 --- E mel min based on Eb7alt (yep)
C7 AbMa7 --- Ab lydian augmented to Ab as diatonic I chord. I think of the C7 as just extensions on an Abmaj7#5. You could think of it as
Abmaj9#5 (lydian augmented) to Abmaj7(lydian or ionian), tense to less tense.
...
F7 DbMa7 --- same relationship as above
...
E7 Cma7 ---- same relatinship as above
...
Aminma7 F#m7b5 - this is staying consistent with the pairing idea, first chord of a pair is from some type of relevant melodic minor harmony,
and the second chord is back to the diatonic (in this case C lydian) harmony. So we have Aminmaj7 from C lydian augmented - then F#m7b5 as
you had it, in C lydian. It's coincidental in this case that F#m7b5 is within both C lydian and C lydian augmented. Theres a consistency in the
pairing of E7 to Cmaj7, then Aminmaj7 to F#m7b5 - lydian augmented to lydian, lydian augmented to lydian.
Hope that makes sense...I can see how "parallel melodic minor" was a little misleading.

m7 harmony - spice it up via melodic minor (Fm7 = F melodic minor)
maj7 harmony - spice it up via lydian augmented (Abma7 = Ab lydian augmented )
dominant harmony - altered scale
and for other tunes/harmony
locrian - - -> locrian nat 2
phrygian - - - > - phrygian natural 13/dorian b9
dominant not functioning as V7 - - -> lydian dominant

bako

02-07-2013, 12:39 PM

Jake,
Thanks, I would have seen it if I was looking at my original progression instead of AbMa7, but I didn't......

JakeAcci

02-07-2013, 01:17 PM

Cool, cool. I like that it's still cycle 6. Opens up interesting doors...keep cycles going but change things based on either the changing harmony in
the tune, or a desire for a more colorful chord scale.

Toddep

02-07-2013, 01:25 PM

This stuff could be called "cycle superimposion"

12/25/2014 10:46 AM

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JakeAcci

02-07-2013, 01:59 PM

Lunch sounds great! I've been trying to put a good hour a day towards the cycles...keeps me very busy with few moments to spare. Being
aware of more of the potential results of my efforts is exciting, though I am big into pacing myself.
my health has been a little better too so some playing would be nice as well...let's email

bako

02-07-2013, 05:53 PM

Each diatonic cycle will pass through every scale tone. I threw this together to better visualize the number of moves it
takes to get from point A to point B. More a lab tool than for the bandstand and I suspect I will only occasionally glance at
it but sometimes the act of writing something leads to new observations.
Here's a copy if any one else cares to occasionally glance.

JakeAcci

1 Attachment(s)

02-08-2013, 08:56 AM

What about three beats of cycle 2 to get to cycle 4? I have tried a few things and am not satisfied with the results.
There Will Never Be Another Eulogy:

Bbma7 - - |Eb7(lyd dom) - - |Ab7 (lyd dom)- - |G7 (altered)- - |C7 (lydian dom)
First measure borrows from sixth mode of D harmonic major to get Bbma7#5#9 extensions:

Dma7 Em7b5 F#m7 |Gm7b5 Am7b5 Bbminma7
Cm7b5 Dm7b5 Ebminma7 | Fm7b5 Gm7b5 Abminmaj7
Bbma7#5 C7 D7 | Em7b5

JakeAcci

02-25-2013, 02:21 PM

Thanks to David/TruthHertz for going the extra mile to make me aware of Norm Zocher's materials on symmetrical scales that do not repeat at
the octave.
I've been having a lot of fun the past few days with this one:
minor third, major third, major third, repeat. Really just root position minor triads ascending in major sevenths - C Eb G, B D F#, Bb Db F, etc.
There's a lot I could say about it but I'll spare you guys the term paper.
two triad cycles voice led in the below video, both over a bass pedal:
(chord/note names are given in concert pitch but the guitar is tuned down two whole steps)
1. G#m B+ D# then repeated a half step below (Gm Bb+ D etc) all over an E pedal...this is from the above scale...I stop at an arbitrary point
that sounded good to me.
2. Same scale but with a half step added below each tone...meaning the chords are approached from a half step below: G#m A#+ B+ D D#
F#m then repeated a half step below (Gm A+ Bb+ C# D Fm etc). All over a G# pedal. Like in Mick's Cycle 2, the voice leading goes down. I like
the sound, it's pretty wild but the pattern gives it consistency while the vertical consequence of the pattern sounds, well, how it sounds. Again I
stop the cycle at arbitrary points then improvise resolutions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JP9jYoty34
The concept of these symmetrical patterns that don't repeat at the octave is really mind blowing and eye opening. It truly does get you out of a
tonal/modal perspective, or at least doesn't keep you in one for very long!
It seems like there are so many places one could go with this stuff...if anybody wants to help me not reinvent the wheel, that's always
appreciated...

Jazzism

03-14-2013, 10:15 PM

To Jake Acci or Truth Hertz,
Would you mind elaborating on the symmetric scales that dont repeat at the octave. I seem to recalll Holdsworth mentioning something about
this in interviews. Something about scales taking 2 or 3 octaves to complete etc
Thx
cheers

JakeAcci

03-14-2013, 11:55 PM

Sure and glad to have some discussion of them.

12/25/2014 10:46 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

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http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

There's a lot to say
a major scale is constructed of whole steps and half steps - W W H W W W H and then we are at an octave
a pentatonic is whole steps and minor thirds - W W m3 W m3 W
These are patterns of intervals that repeat at the octave.
You could have any pattern that doesn't repeat at the octave and call it a scale and wind up with some interesting things, for example:
WWWH
It will take 12 cycles to come back to the beginning. A bit of it: C D E F#, G A B C#, D E F# G#, etc. It doesn't repeat at the octave, it repeats
at the fifth, so it has to go through 12 cycles (the circle of fifths) before it's back to the original.
The 'scale' I based my demo on is:
m3 M3 M3
C Eb G, B D F#, Bb Db F, etc. it repeats at the major seventh, so it takes 12 cycles before it's back to the original.
I worked with the same scale but with extra passing tones:
W H m3 H m3
C D Eb F# G A#, B C# D F F# A
Here's another sequence:
M3 H W H
that repeats at the m6 and takes three cycles to start over:
C E F G Ab C Db Eb E G# A B
You can use these sequences to make extended lines, voice led cycles like I did, permutate them for fast patterned 16th note runs that get you
out of a conventional chord scale or group of extensions...
Does that make sense?

e_del

03-15-2013, 10:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Sure and glad to have some discussion of them.
There's a lot to say
...
...
...
Does that make sense?

Although it's logical, until now I never realized that (almost) all the scales we're dealing with rely on the octave as main interval! Within an
octave we can use all kind of rules to subdivide it, but anytime the result is a repeatable block...
This new perspective opens (to me) a complete new playing field... amazing. :)
At first sight it seems a new harmonic system with more-than-seven-notes scale, based on intervallic patterns, and consequently a similar
number of derived scales, modes, etc...
And reasoning bacward, I could now see our "usual" harmonic system as a subset of this prinicple, based only on the interval of a second,
wether major or minor... right?
Wow, this is one of those "a-ha!" moments for me :)

Bryan T

03-15-2013, 11:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Here's another sequence:

12/25/2014 10:46 AM

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M3 H W H
that repeats at the m6 and takes three cycles to start over:
C E F G Ab C Db Eb E G# A B

With octave reduction and rearranged, I see:
C Db Eb E F G Ab A B
In Messiaen's terminology, the generating sequence is HWH, which is "mode 3."
Your approach to getting there is cool, as it gives a pathway to exploring the sound of the mode.
I really geeked out on the Messiaen modes for a while, filling books with the sounds embedded. Nelson Veras helped me understand how to get
some traction with the sounds and one of the keys to that was finding melodic patterns that repeat, like your M3 H W H sequence.
Bryan

TruthHertz

03-15-2013, 12:00 PM

Joseph Schillinger is a name to keep in mind. He searched for mathematical logic in visual arts as well as music. Some of his stuff translated to
people like Coltrane through theorists like Roland Wiggins when they were both in Philly.
In short, with the Schillinger system, you can make a scale with as few as 3 notes. The scale has a tonic and notes that make up the scale.
Now if the scale has a construction where it doesn't end on the octave, but rather another note where it begins again but with the new tonic on
a different note, it WILL take more than one iteration before it returns to the octave tonic.
How does one use this knowledge? Well the "tradition" looks at the diatonic scales as the structures around which we play, so given a place to
improvise, you're "inside" but in more expansive modern vocabularies, the spaces of improvisation can involve different sounds, or logic patterns
that eventually converge with or create a point in a composition. Symmetrical scales are one way you can easily develop fluency in a different
tonic arrangement, and play it as an alternative to an "inside" approach.
The end result can be a beautifully fluid flow of sound that you wind up saying "What WAS that?" and then it's gone.
You must be really fluent to pass this off though, because rhythmic consistency is a dead giveaway to lack of proficiency and in that situation it
just sounds wrong.
But once you begin getting these sounds in your head, small scales of less than an octave, it opens up really amazing cycles that once they
complete, take you on a journey you can't think up without knowing them.
Until recently, these techniques have been the realm of piano players, composers and horn players. Guitarists worship a different aesthetic.
There are many ways of using any material, it's the responsibility of the artist to figure out a way to touch the listener. This material by it self
can be meaningless streams of notes, or they can make you and your listeners look at sound and music in an entirely different way. It's a
greater responsibility to work with new material because a lot of this is NOT immediately musical, you've got to figure out how to make it music.
That's the criticism from a lot of people that want to feel, don't know how to recognize the thought process that the performer finds so exciting.
I guess the learning curve on this stuff is a bit longer due to the fact that for each person at this point that wants to use it, it's truly your own
wilderness, and anything you do, hasn't been done before. Kind of exciting, eh?
David

marcwhy

03-16-2013, 01:10 AM

Thanks, David -- I always enjoy your stories (which means you can mark me down for a copy of your book when its finished!).
Speaking of Mick ... did anything ever come of his "Falling Grace Variations" book that he told us about??
Ciao,
Marc

TruthHertz

03-16-2013, 11:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcwhy
Speaking of Mick ... did anything ever come of his "Falling Grace Variations" book that he told us about??
Ciao,
Marc

It's almost ready to go to Berklee Press. Soon.
David

marcwhy

03-16-2013, 04:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz

12/25/2014 10:46 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

10 of 10

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

It's almost ready to go to Berklee Press. Soon.
David

Excellent! Thanks.
M
03-17-2013, 03:58 PM

hodge12
Hi, this thread is really interesting. I am just starting to work on this material.
Here is a demonstration of what I think is the first cycle of the almanac.
voiceleading 1 - YouTube

03-17-2013, 07:07 PM

TruthHertz

Nice! Arpeggiate those and you've got some beautiful linear material too! That's a really nice sound. Thanks for posting that
David
03-18-2013, 12:08 AM

edh
Excuse me if this has already been posted.
What is the almanac?
thanks

03-18-2013, 01:15 AM

jckoto3
Quote:
Originally Posted by edh
Excuse me if this has already been posted.
What is the almanac?
thanks

"Mr. Goodchord's Almanac of Voice Leading" by Mick Goodrick. It's an out-of-print exhaustive list of how to voice lead various chord voicings
through various root cycles. Pretty much described in depth in the first page of this topic thread.
03-18-2013, 03:14 AM

edh
Thanks

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goldrun77

03-27-2013, 11:16 AM

I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an exhaustive document of voice leading information that
would take years to get through.

TruthHertz

03-27-2013, 12:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldrun77
I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an exhaustive document of voice leading information that would take years to
get through.

The almanac is actually the extended version of one of the chapters in Advancing. I'm jealous of you for having gotten through
The Advancing Guitarist, it's been years and I'm still making my way around it.
They're both works that try to paint a picture of the big picture. I don't think Mick ever intended anyone to actually get through
the almanacs. Last weekend I was talking with a really remarkable guitarist, former student who's played with Mick, who's been
working with the Almanac a lot. For him, it's not about making progress from one page to the next; it's not a linear book. For
him, it's about being held accountable to a very controlled system, and through work in that way, acquiring an awareness of
every note and its contribution to a harmonic progression. If you learn to use this material, he noted, you come to sense the
movement of every voice. The benefits can be quite quick, and they will show up in the tools of improvisation and spontaneous
composition, but I don't think it's a work to be gotten through.
Neither is the Advancing Guitarist, for that matter. Maybe that's the beauty of the Goodrick books, they are constant companions
for adventurous explorers.
David

JohnoL

03-27-2013, 08:42 PM

I don't know how many times I went to the Goodrick site when he had the books for sale but I was too cheap.
Also when I googled for info on the book (probably well before this forum existed) all the reviews said not to bother with the book(s).
I do have the advancing guitarist and the creative chordal harmony book so I will have to make do with those books plus the info on this forum
and in this thread.

TruthHertz

03-28-2013, 09:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnoL
Also when I googled for info on the book (probably well before this forum existed) all the reviews said not to bother with the book(s).
.

It is not a book most people would find useful, I will be the first to acknowledge. I have read statements on this forum that voice leading is not
possible on a guitar given the limitations of the instrument. The prevailing mindset regarding what the guitar can and cannot do is based on
traditions that have largely defined jazz guitar for better for for worse.
For me, it's like a reference manual on alternative medicine. It's the musical equivalent of a digital rendering of body meridians, but if you study
a different medicine... It realizes a vision one man had of a different way of treating the spectrum of harmonic and melodic interaction. It's not
the way it's been done in the past. A person can now go and figure out these things on their own. The word is out. It is not a necessary part of
being a "guitar player" but in the hands of an "Advancing guitarist", it saves the time one would have to spend to write it yourself. In the hands
of a sonic explorer, the money is soon forgotten and the possibilities presented can give you new insight every day for the rest of your life.
I agree, that most people should not bother. There's enough to worry about just learning about phrasing.
For people actually working on it though, I'm really interested in sharing ideas here. We are breaking new ground and it's really helpful to be
getting feedback.
https://sites.google.com/site/enricodellaquila/cycles
That may be helpful. Perhaps our pooled resources can also come up with the means by which this material can be shared within this group.
Anybody have digital discs of the Almanac?
David

JakeAcci

03-28-2013, 12:45 PM

12/25/2014 10:46 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

2 of 10

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
It is not a book most people would find useful, I will be the first to acknowledge. I have read statements on this forum that voice leading is not possible on a
guitar given the limitations of the instrument. The prevailing mindset regarding what the guitar can and cannot do is based on traditions that have largely defined
jazz guitar for better for for worse.
For me, it's like a reference manual on alternative medicine. It's the musical equivalent of a digital rendering of body meridians, but if you study a different
medicine... It realizes a vision one man had of a different way of treating the spectrum of harmonic and melodic interaction. It's not the way it's been done in the
past. A person can now go and figure out these things on their own. The word is out. It is not a necessary part of being a "guitar player" but in the hands of an
"Advancing guitarist", it saves the time one would have to spend to write it yourself. In the hands of a sonic explorer, the money is soon forgotten and the
possibilities presented can give you new insight every day for the rest of your life.
I agree, that most people should not bother. There's enough to worry about just learning about phrasing.
For people actually working on it though, I'm really interested in sharing ideas here. We are breaking new ground and it's really helpful to be getting feedback.
https://sites.google.com/site/enricodellaquila/cycles
That may be helpful. Perhaps our pooled resources can also come up with the means by which this material can be shared within this group. Anybody have digital
discs of the Almanac?
David

David, how do you think Mick (and others involved in the making of the almanacs) would feel about a digital version of the book being shared?
I'd imagine they would be opposed to it, but since it's out of print I don't know how that changes things, and I figured you could get it from the
horse's mouth. I have vol 1 and 2 (loaners) and a good enough quality scanner where I could scan the book pretty painlessly. Obviously I won't
do this without permission...but the publishing company is defunct.

TruthHertz

03-28-2013, 01:02 PM

Sorry Jake, there are two parties involved. Official word would have to be no. But let's figure out some way that the material itself could be
shared. I'd love for interested people to be able to enrich this little subset of the forum.
David

Jazzism

03-29-2013, 02:12 AM

+1 I would like to see if the people that have access to the material can somehow be able to make it available. Reading the post about the guy
who borrowed them from his library gave me an idea,although this is probably more easier if you live in the US. Im currently working in Hong
Kong, im also currently doing a part time Masters so i approached my University library to see if they can do an inter library loan from the US,
and wether the US library is willing to send it between countries. Will let you know how i fare, they say it will take a few weeks to check, there
is some sort of cue for these queries apparently. From what ive seen Part 1 and 2 seem available but i havent seen part 3 available in libraries,
so this seems the hardest volume for most people to get their hands on.
Regards
SJS

TruthHertz

03-29-2013, 06:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzism
+1 I would like to see if the people that have access to the material can somehow be able to make it available. ... From what ive seen Part 1 and 2 seem
available but i havent seen part 3 available in libraries, so this seems the hardest volume for most people to get their hands on.
Regards
SJS

Reach me on this forum or preferably in a private message through this forum. I have all three volumes and could find some way to work with
a library. Good idea.
David

sjl

03-31-2013, 07:12 AM

I want to ask if the goodrick books are useful for chord melody. If I have to take care in putting the melody note in the higher string, it is
impossible to observe this and the cycles rules at the same time. May be the position of the high note is not so important if you pick the chord
notes at the same time (fingerstyle) but sure it is for strumming.
Goodrick rules are only about to keep the common tones between chords, I think is a superb effort but nothing you couldn't discover by
yourself.
May be I'm wrong?

bako

03-31-2013, 08:29 AM

sji,
The cycles are not a rule. They just cover all the possibilities of progressing within the harmonies of a scale/note collection.
For example in the major scale Ima7 goes to:
Cycle 2-IIm7

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Cycle
Cycle
Cycle
Cycle
Cycle

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

3-IIIm7
4-IVma7
5-V7
6-VIm7
7-VIIm7b5

Melodies and consequentially chord melody is somewhat more complex than voice led cycle progressions and you will not find the solution to
every situation searching the books. That said, I am better prepared to find a workable solution on the fly than I was before I practiced this
material.

Quote:
I think is a superb effort but nothing you couldn't discover by yourself.

This is true. I had studied similar material with diatonic cycles with a jazz teacher many years prior.
Mick took it to another level of thoroughness and graphically did an excellent job of documenting the
movement of chord tones through each chord cycle. Although it was nothing new to me, it provided the impetus to dig in deeper and for this I
am thankful to him.

TruthHertz

03-31-2013, 09:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjl
... I think is a superb effort but nothing you couldn't discover by yourself.
May be I'm wrong?

It's all up to you.
I'm reminded of a conversation I had with Ben Monder. I asked him if he'd worked with the Almanacs. He said he wished he'd had them ten
years previous, meaning he'd done much of that work on his own in the interim, with a lot of use of Bach chorales. He built an entire style from
his own take and assimilation of voice leading, and still he did find them useful for the sheer breadth and scope of the material revealed.
There's a LOT of stuff in the Almanacs. Some of it you'll play and you'll say "Hello there J.S. yeah I knew I'd find you in here somewhere" and
other stuff you'll play and people will say "What kind of guitar is that? Mine doesn't do that!"
It's up to you. If you work out a good voice leading method on your own, you will be better off, because it will be yours. Go for it. If you want
to see some of the stuff you would not have imagined, or see it in a way you may not have seen the logic of, then take a peek at the
Almanacs. There's stuff, lots of stuff that Mick admits he will never play. He has gotten what he needs. But it's all there. Literally.
Also, don't underestimate its power as an ear training tool. It could very well help you develop a kick ass command of getting around the
fingerboard by ear in four voices.
I'd warn you not to look at this as a guide to being able to play this way. That's ALL up to you, and a lot of time and work doing things you
probably never were taught. But as bako says, it's a tool that gives you an instant birds eye view of many unimagined possibilities.
When you get to volume three, watch out. Some of that stuff is REALLY OUT.
As to your question about chord melody, absolutely. When thinking of chord choice, awareness of roots, their locations, the proximity of outer
and inner voices, movement up and down or across the neck are all taken into consideration. The Goodchord really helps me keep sound and
awareness in the equation. Again, you'll have to adapt the material, but since it's not to be taken as complete pieces but rather templates of
movement, these books hold much for the chord soloist.
... if you internalize it.
David

JakeAcci

03-31-2013, 09:41 AM

Yes, adding to Bako and David, one way to look at this material is that its really all about what you do with it. It's not a method book nor is it
supposed to help with some specific area of playing the guitar. I think of it more like a map of the ocean that you can look at and go "oh, how
interesting that that's how the ocean works...wow, the more I look at this, the more I think I understand the ocean...hey isn't that a unique little
section of the ocean right there...oh but look, there's another one just like it on the other side..."

sjl

03-31-2013, 09:56 AM

I appreciate very much your answers, but, anyway the books are not available.
Am I wrong again?
At the other hand. I am into Barry Harris harmony (Alan Kingstone book) and I think its voice leading solution is as easy as it can be, just put a
diminished chord in between (he uses substitutions as well).
In Randy Vincent's drop 2 book he offers solutions for using different voicings than diminished in non chord tones, another great book.

12/25/2014 10:46 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

4 of 10

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

I know guitarists are often scared about the easy ways of doing something but why to stay away of them.

bako

03-31-2013, 10:16 AM

No, they're not available presently or...who knows.
Easy is good but nothing complex about what is in the Almanacs.
Book I and II anyway deal with scale based material mechanically and systematically moving different chord types through cycles with voice
leading.

JakeAcci

03-31-2013, 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjl
I appreciate very much your answers, but, anyway the books are not available.
Am I wrong again?
At the other hand. I am into Barry Harris harmony (Alan Kingstone book) and I think its voice leading solution is as easy as it can be, just put a diminished chord
in between (he uses substitutions as well).
In Randy Vincent's drop 2 book he offers solutions for using different voicings than diminished in non chord tones, another great book.
I know guitarists are often scared about the easy ways of doing something but why to stay away of them.

sjl, not that it really benefits me to defend Mick's books, but I'd propose that you look at the material from a different angle.
The material you mention might be about solving problems with jazz voicings and directly giving the reader material for comping or arranging.
That's very useful, the almanacs do not attempt to do that. It's a different type of resource, just like a dictionary, a thesaurus, an encyclopedia,
and a book on etymology are all different types of resources.
You mention the "easy way of doing something" but there isn't a thing that the almanacs are specifically trying to achieve, the point is that they
are what you make of them. That is different than Barry Harris's or Randy Vincent's material, which attempts to provide tangible solutions to
tangible musical problems. Very different.
The almanacs are not, in my opinion, 'must have' material for every jazz guitarist, as I think a guitarist can learn to play beautifully in a variety
of contexts (solo, duo, trio, modern, swing, bebop, whatever) without even being familiar with the basic premise of the books. They're a
resource that ask the reader to come up with their own applications.
03-31-2013, 12:26 PM

sjl
I understand you Jake.
It is something like Ted Greene books, where you go in order to take ideas.
I hope they will be again on the market!!

TruthHertz

03-31-2013, 04:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Yes, adding to Bako and David, one way to look at this material is that its really all about what you do with it. It's not a method book nor is it supposed to help
with some specific area of playing the guitar. I think of it more like a map of the ocean that you can look at and go "oh, how interesting that that's how the ocean
works...wow, the more I look at this, the more I think I understand the ocean...hey isn't that a unique little section of the ocean right there...oh but look, there's
another one just like it on the other side..."

That is exactly the way Mick described it to me as he was writing them. "You have the ocean, and there are fish everyone knows about, they
catch them and see them all the time. But beneath the surface are fish you don't see, deep sea squids people have only heard about. And then
there are the REALLY weird fish with all these glowing parts and there are things you never imagined. It's all in there. "
This is his mathematical and systematic search for all the fish in the ocean. You will not become an expert on anything by dabbling with the
books, but for the inquiring mind, you have a big book of fishes.
David

sjl

03-31-2013, 04:56 PM

Do I need a horrible guitar for learning this books?
Miller, Lofsky, Goodrick, and the antiarchtop brigade.
:smile-new:

TruthHertz

03-31-2013, 05:47 PM

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Ha ha! Don't forget Ed Bikert's tele.
Yeah, how 'bout when Mick played that tiny Hohner body-less headless canoe paddle? It's further proof that when it's about the music, an
instrument is just an instrument. That being said, he's sounding great on a custom archtop these days. But he also sounds great on a hundred
dollar ukelele he plays too. Not fair.
Hey does anybody else find that the more one finds immersion in the challenge of the music, the less room there is for obsession about guitar
acquisition? Just a question of curiosity. Something I find true for myself anyway.
David
03-31-2013, 05:53 PM

sjl
Good point there!!
More about music and less about the tool!
We are the instrument.

e_del

03-31-2013, 06:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
David, how do you think Mick (and others involved in the making of the almanacs) would feel about a digital version of the book being shared? I'd imagine they
would be opposed to it, but since it's out of print I don't know how that changes things, and I figured you could get it from the horse's mouth. I have vol 1 and 2
(loaners) and a good enough quality scanner where I could scan the book pretty painlessly. Obviously I won't do this without permission...but the publishing
company is defunct.

what about some kind of common re-writing of the books in an open document format?
I don't guarantee it's 100% bulletproof, but my sample website could be used to copy/paste the progressions...
It should be a matter of patience in formatting and editing the pages...
It's a lot of work, but divided in chunks could be feasible...

e_del

03-31-2013, 06:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjl
I want to ask if the goodrick books are useful for chord melody. If I have to take care in putting the melody note in the higher string, it is impossible to observe
this and the cycles rules at the same time. May be the position of the high note is not so important if you pick the chord notes at the same time (fingerstyle) but
sure it is for strumming.
Goodrick rules are only about to keep the common tones between chords, I think is a superb effort but nothing you couldn't discover by yourself.
May be I'm wrong?

I agree on all the answers you got form these fine guys that for sure work a lot more than me on this topic.. :)
I'd only add that chord melody is related for sure to all this Goodrick stuff, but a bit more loosely, due to the fact that you have to respect a top
melody line, and that sometimes this voice leads to some "improper" passing chords, that in that spot are the best sounding solution, without
being contemplated in any theory book...
03-31-2013, 06:49 PM

sjl

There is a guy in Spain called Jordi Farrés (Jordi Farrés ? GUITAR) who has a book about Van Eps techniques, and he doesn't find a publisher
for it.
The editorial world is a very strange but may be, we are a very little piece of market.
If an intelligent (may be a romantic one) publisher is reading this, it is time to republish the almanac!
(And the Farres' book as well).

dasein

04-04-2013, 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
It's all up to you.
When you get to volume three, watch out. Some of that stuff is REALLY OUT.
David

and of course, that's the stuff i'm interested in
the triad and 7th chord cycles are great, but they're not hard to figure out on your own.
but the fourth voicings/triads over bass notes/other stuff? oh yes, please

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dasein

04-04-2013, 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjl
There is a guy in Spain called Jordi Farrés (Jordi Farrés ? GUITAR) who has a book about Van Eps techniques, and he doesn't find a publisher for it.
The editorial world is a very strange but may be, we are a very little piece of market.
If an intelligent (may be a romantic one) publisher is reading this, it is time to republish the almanac!
(And the Farres' book as well).

what does his book contain that's not covered by Van Eps' own books?
a more "practical" guide through Van Eps' system is certainly needed
04-04-2013, 12:37 PM

sjl
I don't know the details but I am sure that is going to be a digested view of Van Eps books.

JohnoL

04-07-2013, 01:14 PM

On the gear page forum there is a thread with this line in it.
Drop 3 Voice Leading - Goodrick - The Gear Page
Quote:
there's a guy over on the jazz guitar forum that came up with some formulas for
this.
He also made some web pages that can print out any of the almanac
pages.

I kind of remember this. Can anyone point me to these formulas and the web pages?

TruthHertz

04-07-2013, 05:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnoL
On the gear page forum there is a thread with this line in it.
Drop 3 Voice Leading - Goodrick - The Gear Page

I kind of remember this. Can anyone point me to these formulas and the web pages?

https://sites.google.com/site/enricodellaquila/cycles
That might help. I also may be circulating my copies of V1-3 for library-type use. Stay tuned.
David

mikostep

04-07-2013, 05:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
https://sites.google.com/site/enricodellaquila/cycles
That might help. I also may be circulating my copies of V1-3 for library-type use. Stay tuned.
David

That would be great.

e_del

04-08-2013, 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
https://sites.google.com/site/enricodellaquila/cycles

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That might help. I also may be circulating my copies of V1-3 for library-type use. Stay tuned.
David

happy it's useful for someone :-)
Note that on that draft website there are many versions of the scripts, the latest to use is ver. 6, a bit more complete, although the graphic
renderings got me stuck (simply don't count on them :-) ).
https://sites.google.com/site/enricodellaquila/cycles6
Maybe during this year I'll find some spare time to improve something...
Note also that some cycle, due to voice movement pattern, complete in only two rows, thus duplicating in the page.
I had not time to manage the various cases, so I left every page with the 4 row schema...
Again, any help/suggestion/debug note is very appreciated :-)
meanwhile, have fun!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
That might help. I also may be circulating my copies of V1-3 for library-type use. Stay tuned.
David

Include me too in the list.. :-)
Enrico

hodge12

04-08-2013, 06:47 PM

so does that script have all the stuff from vol 1 and 2?

e_del

04-08-2013, 07:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodge12
so does that script have all the stuff from vol 1 and 2?

It should, but actually I'm not sure...
I worked only on some pages, I got from a friend that kindly took a photo for (hopefully) any of the cycles type
But I don't own any of the almanacs (and BTW this is the reason why I decided to write the script) so I'm not sure if everything is covered.. but
it should! :-)
There are more info on the almanacs related on the voice movement type, if I remember well, but since I was interested only in recreating the
movement pattern, I left those info out.
As a last thing, I'd like to point out that all the script is based on small voice movement pattern that seemed to appear when I had a look at the
cycles. You can see them looking at the little arrows between the notes... they repeat periodically.
It seems to work, but I hadn't the time to check completely any of the cycles (well, maybe triads and some drop2 tetrads), so no guarantee at
this point that *everything* is ok.
If you use those, I'm happy; If you find errors (and tell me) I'll be happier! :-)

Rsilver

04-24-2013, 09:52 AM

I found the books not very helpful. I would have much preferred that they used standard chord progressions, such as Stella, Giant Steps, etc,
rather than cycles within a single scale, to illustrate the voice leading possibilities.

JakeAcci

04-24-2013, 10:09 AM

Rsilver, I think comments have already been made addressing your criticism. Also, nothing is stopping you from applying what you get from the
books towards standard progressions.

TruthHertz

04-24-2013, 10:47 AM

Quote:

12/25/2014 10:46 AM

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Originally Posted by Rsilver
I found the books not very helpful. I would have much preferred that they used standard chord progressions, such as Stella, Giant Steps, etc, rather than cycles
within a single scale, to illustrate the voice leading possibilities.

Big oversight in the books. Want to sell them to me cheap?
David

mikostep

05-22-2013, 03:46 AM

C'mon guys, DON'T LET THIS DIE.

JakeAcci

05-22-2013, 08:19 AM

Here's a useful chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...qSHZRNmc#gid=0
And not-useful explorations:
Consider the above for non-diatonic cycles...example, what if cycle 5 always moves in perfect fifths rather than diatonic fifths, and the chord
type is always maj7#5? Or alternate between maj7#5 and....
I've found patterns within the cycles, you can make alterations and get some wild stuff.
For example, triads in cycle 6, you only change one note at a time, right? If you start in root position the pattern of which note gets moved is
top, middle, bottom. the top voice goes up a scale tone, then the middle voice, then the bottom voice. Example diatonic cycle 6 in C major:
CEG
CEA
CFA
DFA
What about taking the same idea but instead of the tones moving up to the next note in a scale, they move up in this pattern: whole step, half
step, half step? Gets pretty wild pretty fast:
CEG
CEA
CFA
C# F A
C# F B
C# F# B
D F# B
D F# C#
D G C#
D# G C#
D# G D#
D# G# D#
E G# D#
E G# F
EAF
FAF
F AG
F A# G

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F# A# G
F# A# A
F# B A
GBA
GBB
And on and on...fun to look for changes you can make to each cycle to get some unfamiliar sounds. The tonality established is almost random,
but the voice leading is patterned, giving it consistency. Consistent voice leading, almost 'atonal' or 'random' harmony. If you're into that sort of
thing....

dhaskins

05-22-2013, 09:52 AM

Creative Chordal Harmony for Guitar: Using Generic Modality Compression

have any of you started work with this new book?

Bryan T

05-22-2013, 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhaskins
Creative Chordal Harmony for Guitar: Using Generic M odality Compression

have any of you started work with this new book?

Yes. The basic idea is neat: Take a group of seven notes and only focus on six. Think about the different ways you can divide those six into two
groups of three. Explore the possibilities (harmonically, melodically) using all the seven note scales you can think of. Definitely worth spending
time working through.
Having said that, given how inspiring "The Advancing Guitarist" is, I was a bit disappointed that CCHfG didn't have more ideas.

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05-22-2013, 12:33 PM

TruthHertz
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikostep
C'mon guys, DON'T LET THIS DIE.

Oh it's so alive! I'm about to put some last stretch touches on a pretty big project involving the Almanacs and their use. I'll use stuff from this
thread and also incorporate approaches people (and you guys) have come across.
The workbook, as I'm thinking of it, will have a considerable amount of material from the original books so those of you that don't have them
will find more than enough material to work with, but more importantly, it will be an open discussion about using material like this.
So yes, everyone, chime in and I'll let you know how we might circulate this material.
Here's an observation and conversation question to all of you, could we perhaps begin a discussion?:
First of all, Mick left almost no instruction about what to actually do with this material.
It seems to me that there's a great divide in improvisational thinking, here on this group and in the professional and academic spheres. There
are those that see an almost sacred mission to respect the changes. I think of this as inside playing. Song form and standards are the structural
frames for this approach (in general) and often the phrasing is eighth note based. I also think of this as bebop lineage.
And there are compositional approaches, where a solo space becomes a more interpretive canvas for structures maybe suggested by but not
strictly governed by the changes. This is Miles with the second quintet all the way up to pieces with more open ended vamp forms. There is
often 16th note phrasing and the use of smaller "micro structures" that work to create the architecture of a solo.
Yeah this is really generalizing, but it has a lot to do with how tools like the voice led cycles are utilized. How do any of you use these sounds
playing inside a standard, or a more expansive use? In other words, how do you see the solo space and how does the voice leading material
add a working tool to that solo construction?
Does this material change the way you solo, or the way you lay out materials? I know for me it's a great sound that is easily identifiable yet
there are so many choices of what and how to use it that it's always fresh. For me, the hardest part is really internalizing the sounds created so
I can even begin to assign it to a meaningful solo; but when it's there, and it works, it's really beautiful and it creates useful compositional
material that, as complex as it is, is simple to employ once it's practiced and internalized.
How about it, any thoughts or comments on what you have, have not been able to do? Hope to do? Have found useful?
Thanks, and it'd be great to get your feedback on the workbook. I'd want to distribute it at pretty much the cost of running a copy at Staples,
and putting it in file form is good too. Any thoughts on hard copy vs digital? I've always liked the feel of pages and space to put notes and post
it commentary, but that's my self.
David
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Toddep

05-22-2013, 02:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Oh it's so alive! I'm about to put some last stretch touches on a pretty big project involving the Almanacs and their use. I'll use stuff from this thread and also
incorporate approaches people (and you guys) have come across.
The workbook, as I'm thinking of it, will have a considerable amount of material from the original books so those of you that don't have them will find more than
enough material to work with, but more importantly, it will be an open discussion about using material like this.
So yes, everyone, chime in and I'll let you know how we might circulate this material.
Here's an observation and conversation question to all of you, could we perhaps begin a discussion?:
First of all, Mick left almost no instruction about what to actually do with this material.
It seems to me that there's a great divide in improvisational thinking, here on this group and in the professional and academic spheres. There are those that see
an almost sacred mission to respect the changes. I think of this as inside playing. Song form and standards are the structural frames for this approach (in general)
and often the phrasing is eighth note based. I also think of this as bebop lineage.
And there are compositional approaches, where a solo space becomes a more interpretive canvas for structures maybe suggested by but not strictly governed by
the changes. This is Miles with the second quintet all the way up to pieces with more open ended vamp forms. There is often 16th note phrasing and the use of
smaller "micro structures" that work to create the architecture of a solo.
Yeah this is really generalizing, but it has a lot to do with how tools like the voice led cycles are utilized. How do any of you use these sounds playing inside a
standard, or a more expansive use? In other words, how do you see the solo space and how does the voice leading material add a working tool to that solo
construction?
Does this material change the way you solo, or the way you lay out materials? I know for me it's a great sound that is easily identifiable yet there are so many
choices of what and how to use it that it's always fresh. For me, the hardest part is really internalizing the sounds created so I can even begin to assign it to a
meaningful solo; but when it's there, and it works, it's really beautiful and it creates useful compositional material that, as complex as it is, is simple to employ
once it's practiced and internalized.
How about it, any thoughts or comments on what you have, have not been able to do? Hope to do? Have found useful?
Thanks, and it'd be great to get your feedback on the workbook. I'd want to distribute it at pretty much the cost of running a copy at Staples, and putting it in file
form is good too. Any thoughts on hard copy vs digital? I've always liked the feel of pages and space to put notes and post it commentary, but that's my self.
David

I would support both and analog and digital copies..

jeromesteele

05-22-2013, 03:46 PM

This is great. This has already been a tremendous source of inspiration. I would be over the moon to get my hands on a physical copy of your
explorations and applications of this material. This is very exciting.

bako

05-22-2013, 06:10 PM

C E G------C E G
C E A-----C E A
C F A-----C F A
C# F A------D F A
C# F B-----D F B
C# F# B-----D G B
D F# B-----E G B
D F# C#-----E G C
D G C#------E A C
D# G C#------F A C
D# G D#-----F A D
D# G# D#-----F B D

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E G# D#-----G B D
E G# F-----G B E
E A F-----G C E
F A F------A C E
F A G-----A C F
F A# G-----A D F
F# A# G------B D F
F# A# A-----B D G
F# B A------B E G
G B A------C E G
G B B-----C E A
Jake,
I wrote the diatonic version alongside to see if I could uncover the pattern, no luck so far.
Clues?
Thanks,
Bako

marcwhy

05-22-2013, 11:28 PM

David, Put me down for an order!
Marc

JakeAcci

05-23-2013, 01:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bako
Jake,
I wrote the diatonic version alongside to see if I could uncover the pattern, no luck so far.
Clues?
Thanks,
Bako

Rats, I'm sorry Bako, I swear I didn't mean to be cryptic.
I wrote "What about taking the same idea but instead of the tones moving up to the next note in a scale, they move up in this pattern: whole
step, half step, half step? Gets pretty wild pretty fast:"
It's a real simple pattern:
In this case we start with root position triad
then the highest voice moves up a whole step
then the middle voice moves up a half step
then the lowest voice moves up a half step
repeat:
then the highest voice moves up a whole step
then the middle voice moves up a half step
then the lowest voice moves up a half step
As you continue the highest voice gets farther away from the lower two voices and the harmony is different at each stage.

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In this mode of thinking the only constant is an intervallic voice leading pattern, there is no scale, there is no cycle, there are no chords or chord
progression except the starting point which happens to be a root position major triad but it could have just as easily been anything else.
Hope that clears it up. I've been having fun with the concept. Again, didn't mean to be cryptic or obtuse.

TruthHertz

05-23-2013, 02:31 AM

Ah! DIYMSRP! Now I see it. Heeyyyy, now we're into inventing some far out stuff! You can make it really interesting by having each voice get
"back into line" to avoid the stuck-across-the-boat-and-the-dock phenomenon. Gotta play around with this with spread voicings, and get them to
resolve into a usable dominant chord at some point to make this really useful.
Fun stuff. Thanks Jake
David

JakeAcci

05-23-2013, 09:08 AM

Hah, DIYMSRP, exactly! Harmonically, you can also allow the pattern to bring you somewhere and then "realize" the harmony of the
moment...for example somewhere in there was F# A# A, kinda looks like an F#7#9...in the improviser's/composer's mind that could become a
jumping-off point for a new modulation to something more concretely tonal.

e_del

05-24-2013, 05:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Oh it's so alive! I'm about to put some last stretch touches on a pretty big project involving the Almanacs and their use. I'll use stuff from this thread and also
incorporate approaches people (and you guys) have come across.
The workbook, as I'm thinking of it, will have a considerable amount of material from the original books so those of you that don't have them will find more than
enough material to work with, but more importantly, it will be an open discussion about using material like this.
So yes, everyone, chime in and I'll let you know how we might circulate this material.

waiting for news too...
Paper is good for annotations, but PDF is easier to browse and search... why couldn't we have both? :)

TruthHertz

05-24-2013, 06:06 PM

Oh yeah, I'll have both. I'm just wondering where everyone is in their preferences. So let's have a survey here if you can please, on the forum
or private response.
How many of you actually have Volume 1,
how many need/want volume 1,
how many of you have volume 2,
need/want vol 2,
have vol 3 or
need/want vol 3.
How many would prefer working with paper,
how many would like a thumb drive, (if it gets pagey...)
Both?
If I send out stuff I'll do it at a cost that will cover Staples and the USPS. Sound good?
This information will be really useful as I'm putting the workbook together. So do let me know if you've wanted to work with this material but
have never gotten your hands on it. We'll all work together to get some good discussions going on and I'll send out some materials.
I'm also getting some people that are willing to help collect recordings of the cycles, so we can browse them aurally. Anybody out there willing?
Note: For obvious copyright issues, there is no way I can actually distribute the books. But we can discuss their content and I will provide
"parts" for us to create study groups.
Reach me privately for details please.
Thanks a lot
David

marcwhy

05-24-2013, 07:56 PM

Thanks, David.
I have Vol 1, I would like Vol 3.
Paper and pdf are good.
Marc

Jazzism

05-24-2013, 09:24 PM

Hi David,

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Yesterday, i managed to get Vol 2 through my university's inter library loan service. strangely enough, not from the US but from Denmark. All
the way from Denmark to Hong Kong. So yeah, still looking to source Vol 1 and 3.
The workbook is a fantastic idea, as i have kind of been working in the dark regarding how to apply this stuff.
I mean, playing standards is great and all and its a shared vocabulary, but it seems to give me a lot of enjoyment to just let go and not be
concerned about functional harmony and just combine sounds that appeal to me. I guess the hassle will come later when i have to figure out
how to solo over these structures or explain it to other sidemen?
Last week i was at a friends place who has a set of V drums and we experimented with doing something more harmonically interesting in the
drum and bass genre, so i found a few voicings that i liked, ( i found some pages i had photo copied from someone years ago from Vol 1) some
TBN's, drop 2 voicings etc, and came up with this little ditty which i thought i would share as i also dont want this thread to die. I find it very
stimulating.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/109255194/Drumbacity.mp3
Its interesting to imagine what you could do if, as you say David, you can start to internalize the cycles and use them more freely than just
being able to play through them as an exercise.
BTW, Inspired thinking Jake. very cool idea
cheers

e_del

05-25-2013, 07:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
repeat:
then the highest voice moves up a whole step
then the middle voice moves up a half step
then the lowest voice moves up a half step
As you continue the highest voice gets farther away from the lower two voices and the harmony is different at each stage.

... hmm... to my ears it sounds like an arrangement "Pezanelli style" (hybrids: triad + bass... look at mike's masterclasses, very good stuff), but
continuously changing the tension, and thus the "color" under the higher note that I interpret as the main melody...
but the effect is different if you use different inversions, as the "higher voice" that moves whole steps is different...
interesting... having time to dig it! :-) :-)

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driskel

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

05-25-2013, 01:29 PM

David,
I have been lurking here for some time, this my first post.
I have been searching for all three volumes for sometime now. To clarify, I am beginning my jazz journey, so my capabilities and understanding
are light.
I am looking for all three volumes, and would prefer both paper as well thumb drive. In terms of costs that you mention, I think that is quite a
generous offer.
Thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Oh yeah, I'll have both. I'm just wondering where everyone is in their preferences. So let's have a survey here if you can please, on the forum or private response.
How many of you actually have Volume 1,
how many need/want volume 1,
how many of you have volume 2,
need/want vol 2,
have vol 3 or
need/want vol 3.
How many would prefer working with paper,
how many would like a thumb drive, (if it gets pagey...)
Both?
If I send out stuff I'll do it at a cost that will cover Staples and the USPS. Sound good?
This information will be really useful as I'm putting the workbook together. So do let me know if you've wanted to work with this material but have never gotten
your hands on it. We'll all work together to get some good discussions going on and I'll send out some materials.
I'm also getting some people that are willing to help collect recordings of the cycles, so we can browse them aurally. Anybody out there willing?
Note: For obvious copyright issues, there is no way I can actually distribute the books. But we can discuss their content and I will provide "parts" for us to create
study groups.
Reach me privately for details please.
Thanks a lot
David

mikostep

05-25-2013, 04:02 PM

Hello David,
Thanks for thinking on us.
I would like all three volumes and both forms.
Thanks very much.

TruthHertz

05-25-2013, 07:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by driskel
David,
I have been lurking here for some time, this my first post.
I have been searching for all three volumes for sometime now. To clarify, I am beginning my jazz journey, so my capabilities and understanding are light.
I am looking for all three volumes, and would prefer both paper as well thumb drive. In terms of costs that you mention, I think that is quite a generous offer.
Thank you.

Hey driskel. Good for you, and I'd like to encourage and ask of some of our more seasoned members to please work with us here. As an early
and beginning advancing guitarist, I think this is an AMAZING opportunity to embrace a very powerful tool in voice leading. I'll tell you right now
that these books are deep, and they are an ocean that at least assumes you can swim.
I'm thrilled to see you wanting to use these because the VAST majority of guitarists lock themselves into the drop 2 trap from the start and so
many find it impossibly intimidating to give that up.
Opinions from others? The theoretical world of the jazz guitarist vs other instruments?
And driskel, what is it you're looking for? Hoping to be able to do? You know these volumes are about as intelliglble as a Chinese telephone
book for most people? What turned you on to this stuff?
I had a student who bought vol 1 thinking that this was finally a way to get around memorizing chord voicings in favour of a voice led approach
where everything was written out. I don't know why he didn't work with the material long enough to scratch the surface but I think he wanted
something that would make him understand harmony without him hitting a certain ear threshold.
I would love this forum to be a wide a spectrum for these books, everybody working together. Driskel, you may be the point man at the
beginner's end. Tell me a little about what you know at this point. Let's get you up to speed.

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Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

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I really want to see what can happen with a clear open mind.
David

driskel

05-26-2013, 12:23 PM

Thanks David for the reply it is greatly appreciated. I will try to answer your questions below. If I did not provide the answers you were looking
for or did not understand the question, please let me know and I will try to clarify.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Hey driskel. Good for you, and I'd like to encourage and ask of some of our more seasoned members to please work with us here. As an early and beginning
advancing guitarist, I think this is an AMAZING opportunity to embrace a very powerful tool in voice leading. I'll tell you right now that these books are deep, and
they are an ocean that at least assumes you can swim.
I'm thrilled to see you wanting to use these because the VAST majority of guitarists lock themselves into the drop 2 trap from the start and so many find it
impossibly intimidating to give that up.
Opinions from others? The theoretical world of the jazz guitarist vs other instruments?
And driskel, what is it you're looking for? Hoping to be able to do? You know these volumes are about as intelliglble as a Chinese telephone book for most people?
What turned you on to this stuff?

I understand that these are not technique books but small algorithms of voice leading concepts. I also understand that the material presented is
a great challenge. What turned me on to this was hearing some examples from players plus the challenge that they present. I am looking
forward to the intellectual challenge that this material presents.
As a player, I am looking for something new. I have been locked into pentatonic rock and roll playing. I have been looking for something else to
keep me interested in the instrument and quite honestly my ears are hearing more complex harmony.
Some players that have knocked me out truly understand the instrument, Mick Goodrick and Ted Greene for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I had a student who bought vol 1 thinking that this was finally a way to get around memorizing chord voicings in favour of a voice led approach where everything
was written out. I don't know why he didn't work with the material long enough to scratch the surface but I think he wanted something that would make him
understand harmony without him hitting a certain ear threshold.
I would love this forum to be a wide a spectrum for these books, everybody working together. Driskel, you may be the point man at the beginner's end. Tell me a
little about what you know at this point. Let's get you up to speed.
I really want to see what can happen with a clear open mind.
David

I have played rock and roll and for a long time, so I am not new to the instrument. Jazz I am new to as player. About 6 months ago, I decided
to pretty much throw everything away and try to look at the instrument with fresh ears and eyes and approach it like I am starting from home
base.
I have discovered for me that the driving force has been the intellectual challenge of learning and truly grasping the concept(s) before moving
on. This new discovery pretty much keeps a guitar in my hand all the time when I am home. I have the desired again and that desire it to be a
student of the guitar.
So my first steps have been as a new old guitar player:
1)
2)
a)
3)
4)

Relearning reading music notation (Berkley Guitar Method)
Relearning the major scales
Harmonizing the major scales and learning the arpeggio shapes (M7, m7, 7, m7b5) in basically the CAGED positions.
Triad work
Chord construction.

Thanks,
Michael

TruthHertz

05-29-2013, 09:35 PM

Goodchord for the beginner.
I think this is really exciting. The more I teach, the more I realize that 1) Jazz is a lot more complicated than most beginners comprehend. 2)
there are inherent built in limitations to fretboard mastery that make the learning curve a little easier (grabs, for example, and harmony
reduced to drop 2 voicings...) 3) there are things that pianists, composers and arrangers take for granted that are considered impossible for
guitarists. 4) Guitarists arrive on the doorstep of jazz land and many are paralyzed by the task put before them.
So the idea of starting with a new landscape, this is really such a great thing.
The almanacs are written without notation. This is to avoid the shortcomings of the notational system in seeing relationships, but also so
everybody can jump in with this material.

12/25/2014 10:47 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

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http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

On the flip side, you must know the names of all the notes all over the fingerboard. This is not only helpful, but when you're trying to learn one
thing (to see how voices move AND to hear it) you don't want to even be doubting where that Eb is.
Notation is a good, no a great skill to have but not overtly necessary in Almanac land.
It'd be really helpful if you knew the voicings of drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 + 4 in all inversions, on all string sets because the groupings do follow
chord families and if you have some muscle memory in your hands, it will go much faster.
The voice leading takes you through cycles, so know enough about harmony to know the chord qualities of the diatonic scales for Major,
Melodic minor and Harmonic minor. It'll make it easier and you will be able to think about actual musical context in actual pieces if you know
how the chords fit the scales and visa versa.
Also in the string or flow of voices, at some point you're going to have to switch string sets. How fluidly you do this depends on how second
nature the shape of a chord is on any given set of strings.
As with all of this material, everybody is in the same pool before long. Veteran players, those new to the game, we'll all be finding new stuff to
WOW about, but another thing I've observed 5) students think the task is beyond them and they quietly give up.
There's no inherent difference between those that master material and those that spend their lives wondering why they play the same things,
except the point at which they stopped advancing.
Can some of the others here give some ideas about what might be handy to be familiar with in the voice leading materials?
And can some of the starters please feel free to ask questions? I'd find it really helpful for the workbook.
Thanks
David

jeromesteele

05-29-2013, 10:03 PM

"There's no inherent difference between those that master material and those that spend their lives wondering why they play the same things,
except the point at which they stopped advancing."
This is true. And inspiring.

driskel

05-30-2013, 12:10 PM

Thanks David, for the encouragement and words of wisdom. Since I am the beginner here in every sense. I will highlight what I will work on to
prep for this journey. In terms of giving up due to the challenge this will be an interesting experiment for myself. I hope I can offer you value
back.
Maybe I can contribute a bit of a checklist for the beginner like me.
1) Know the name of all the notes on the neck. Learning the octave patterns can facilitate this process, at least for me they did.
2) Understand the chord qualities of the harmonized scales.
Major - W,W,1/2,W,W,W,1/2
I M7, ii m7, iii m7, IV M7, V7, vi m7, vii m7b5
Natural Minor
i m7, ii m7b5, bIII M7, iv m7, v m7 / V7, bVI M7, bVII7
Melodic Minor - W,1/2,W,W,W,W,1/2
i m(M7), ii m7, bIII M7#5, IV7, V7, vi dim 7, vii m7b5
Harmonic Minor - W,1/2,@,@,1/2,1 1/2, 1/2
i m(M7), ii m7, bIII M7#5, iv m7, V7, bVI M7, vii dim 7
3) Learn Drop 2 Chords inversions
Drop 2 Chords & Voicings For Guitar
4) Learn Drop 3 Chords and inversions
How to Play Drop 3 Chords On Guitar - MattWarnockGuitar.com
5) Learn Drop 2 and 4 Chords and inversions
How to Play Drop 2 and 4 Chords - MattWarnockGuitar.com
Thanks for the comments and letting a beginner like me participate.
Michael.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Goodchord for the beginner.
I think this is really exciting. The more I teach, the more I realize that 1) Jazz is a lot more complicated than most beginners comprehend. 2) there are inherent
built in limitations to fretboard mastery that make the learning curve a little easier (grabs, for example, and harmony reduced to drop 2 voicings...) 3) there are
things that pianists, composers and arrangers take for granted that are considered impossible for guitarists. 4) Guitarists arrive on the doorstep of jazz land and
many are paralyzed by the task put before them.

12/25/2014 10:47 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

8 of 13

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

So the idea of starting with a new landscape, this is really such a great thing.
The almanacs are written without notation. This is to avoid the shortcomings of the notational system in seeing relationships, but also so everybody can jump in
with this material.
On the flip side, you must know the names of all the notes all over the fingerboard. This is not only helpful, but when you're trying to learn one thing (to see how
voices move AND to hear it) you don't want to even be doubting where that Eb is.
Notation is a good, no a great skill to have but not overtly necessary in Almanac land.

David, I do know the notes up and down the neck, via learning the octave patterns. I run through all the notes on the neck for about 5 minutes
a day as a practice drill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
It'd be really helpful if you knew the voicings of drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 + 4 in all inversions, on all string sets because the groupings do follow chord families and if
you have some muscle memory in your hands, it will go much faster.
The voice leading takes you through cycles, so know enough about harmony to know the chord qualities of the diatonic scales for Major, Melodic minor and
Harmonic minor. It'll make it easier and you will be able to think about actual musical context in actual pieces if you know how the chords fit the scales and visa
versa.
Also in the string or flow of voices, at some point you're going to have to switch string sets. How fluidly you do this depends on how second nature the shape of a
chord is on any given set of strings.

I know the diatonic harmony for both the Major and Natural Minor scales. I will start drilling the other two to help get the diatonic harmony
more in my ears, head and hands.
I do not know at least by term or name the drop chords. I will start drilling those as well, to get them in my ears, head and hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
As with all of this material, everybody is in the same pool before long. Veteran players, those new to the game, we'll all be finding new stuff to WOW about, but
another thing I've observed 5) students think the task is beyond them and they quietly give up.
There's no inherent difference between those that master material and those that spend their lives wondering why they play the same things, except the point at
which they stopped advancing.
Can some of the others here give some ideas about what might be handy to be familiar with in the voice leading materials?
And can some of the starters please feel free to ask questions? I'd find it really helpful for the workbook.
Thanks
David

dasein

06-08-2013, 03:10 PM

i've spent the last couple weeks moving and unpacking so missed the latest stuff, but man.... Dave/TruthHertz, i'll take whatever you got
in fact, if you are at least an intermediate guitarist and you're NOT interested in Dave/TH's extremely generous offer, then perhaps the John
Petrucci forums would be more of your speed

driskel

06-11-2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
https://sites.google.com/site/enricodellaquila/cycles
That might help. I also may be circulating my copies of V1-3 for library-type use. Stay tuned.
David

Thank you for the link.
I have been playing around with the Cycle 6, Major Triad (1 3 5 closed) in C last night and today from this site. While it is slow going I like what
I am hearing.
As a beginner, my first impressions and comments for other beginners are:
1) Do not get discouraged, go slow and enjoy the sounds. It is ok to be lost, I can see an immediate improvement on the 2nd day, in left hand
technique as well as improving the ear.
2) If you do not know the neck in terms of notes that is ok, you will struggle but go slow. Running and working through the cycle, while saying
the triad name and as well as reciting the notes does offer great note to neck recognition training. In fact I am thinking about combining this
with note training. It is a lot more fun.
3) running the cycle is a great approach to hear diatonic harmony at work.
4) I can hear this in context of modern music with 2 guitar instrumentation, being able to keep two guitars out of each others way in the song.
My first two cents, take it for what it is worth.

12/25/2014 10:47 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

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Thanks,
Michael

ronjazz

06-11-2013, 08:53 PM

That's been my experience, Michael. Cool sounds and real knowledge from the first day of working out of the book.

driskel

06-11-2013, 09:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjazz
That's been my experience, Michael. Cool sounds and real knowledge from the first day of working out of the book.

Thanks Ron.
One other recommendation for the beginner, When reciting the note names of the chord, pay attention to the interval, the note name, as well
as chord name. This will help with chord recognition in the future.
Thanks again all.
Michael

driskel

06-25-2013, 04:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
...
When Mick was still writing the book, he gave me a formula and the way to put it together, just as an idea. I spent that summer in the desert in Nevada with a
notebook just unravelling numbers and notes for hours. It was incredibly meditative and amazing. I started to see patterns emerging about the interrelationships
of chordal groupings...
David

David, I just spent about 10 hours on vacation doing the same, with the Natural and Melodic Minor scales writing out the cycles in Drop 2 for
7th's chords. I plan on doing more of the same for drop 3, drop 2 and 4, etc... In all keys. It will take some time, but what a great way to drill
chord construction and chord to note(s).
As a beginner to this, taking on a monk like behavior, putting pen to paper starts to really show the patterns. As a recommendation to all. If
doing this add the interval number of the note in chord, next to the letter. It will really show the voice leading/to drop chord inversion
relationships in the movement.
Thanks for your time.

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TruthHertz

06-26-2013, 02:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by driskel
David, I just spent about 10 hours on vacation doing the same, with the Natural and Melodic Minor scales writing out the cycles in Drop 2 for 7th's chords. I plan
on doing more of the same for drop 3, drop 2 and 4, etc... In all keys. It will take some time, but what a great way to drill chord construction and chord to note(s).
As a beginner to this, taking on a monk like behavior, putting pen to paper starts to really show the patterns. As a recommendation to all. If doing this add the
interval number of the note in chord, next to the letter. It will really show the voice leading/to drop chord inversion relationships in the movement.
Thanks for your time.

Yes, doing this in long hand really makes you realize the melodic and canonic potential of the material. Not that you don't get that from working
with the book but writing it out gave me time to think about what was happening. Working with it after that had a whole different dimension.
I found that even used as a guide to connecting one individual chord to another, the cycles can be used very effectively within a tonal situation,
which is something that's not always apparent when confronted with an entire cycle. There is more than one way to get to a chord who's root is
a fourth away. You can voice lead a line and when the line converges with the next given chord in a set of changes, you can rejoin the cadence
of the written piece at that point.
Any one working along these lines?
Who else is needing material from the Almanacs? Contact me in a private message with your email and I'll attach some pages of cycles we can
all work with.
David

driskel

06-26-2013, 09:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I found that even used as a guide to connecting one individual chord to another, the cycles can be used very effectively within a tonal situation, which is
something that's not always apparent when confronted with an entire cycle. There is more than one way to get to a chord who's root is a fourth away. You can
voice lead a line and when the line converges with the next given chord in a set of changes, you can rejoin the cadence of the written piece at that point.
Any one working along these lines?
David

This was one of my observations and a new point of study for me on the subject.
Thank you to all for this thread.

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TruthHertz

07-11-2013, 03:51 PM

For anyone who has expressed interest in getting some material for you (us) to work on, and if you haven't heard from me, contact me using
the Private Messages function here and send me your e-mail address. If it's gmail, even better since I'm using Google drive these days. I think
it's finally working.
Let me know which volume(s) you'd be interested in jumping into and I'll send you materials we can all use in common. A starter kit of sorts. If
you've sent me a message before and haven't gotten an invite to my Google drive, please forgive me and send me another communique.
Emails and E-fails have a way of opening up cracks things can fall into.
Here's a little something I'll share from an upcoming project. It's Mick's thoughts from a while ago, on the topic of these Voice Leading
Almanacs:
Quote:
It's like having a complete deck of cards for the first time. In other words, any 4 part chord that can happen within a major scale or a melodic minor or harmonic
minor is in there and all the voicings of it that are possible are there. So there isn't anything involving 4 part chords diatonically that's not in there potentially. So
the potential, assuming you can learn it in other keys is enormous. So why should I... I couldn't...
I could probably give some examples like : Let's take All The Things You Are and I'm going to use triad over bass note 1 with this kind of voice leading because it
starts off going cycle 4. You could do that and give examples and that would be fine, but I'm not concerned about that. I'm much more concerned about having
[drummer/pianist who worked with the Alamanac] Peter Erskine get the book and immediately go to the piano. He takes volume 2, takes the spread clusters that
are the last ones there, in harmonic minor and starts playing them slowly on the piano.
That's what I'm concerned with because then, you don't have to say anything. They know what to do with it.
...[it's] just a tool. For me, it's the sounds. The sounds! Just hits! I've never heard this before. I've never played this before. I've never heard this what is that?
There was something about the way the voices move where it's actually, in many cases one long melody that's moving 4 at a time that makes it sound the way it
does, that was so intriguing to me...
-Mick Goodrick -from when he was writing the books from a conversation in 2003

I hope we can get some sounds into the collective consciousness here. ' have some real fun...
David

driskel

07-11-2013, 04:08 PM

As a quick note/update.
I took the A Section of Autumn Leaves (Gmin) and using the Almanac approach found really smooth voice leading approach in drop 3 (root, 1st,
2nd and 3rd inversions). Very interesting stuff here. I can't wait to catch up.
I will post later if anyone is interested.
Michael

e_del

07-11-2013, 04:38 PM

hi David,
from what you (and Mick) wrote, one thing to remember is that those almanacs aren't in a difficulty order... just grouped by "common use",
right?
Usually one learn/play triads first, then tetrads, then other structures, and this is the book order, but there's no (or few) contrary side effects in
starting e.g. with triad-over-bass structure...

TruthHertz

07-11-2013, 09:12 PM

No, on the contrary, there's something wonderfully child like in the non heirarchical nature of that material. So you skim through, find something
that says "Whoa! Unbelievable" and you work with that sound until it creeps into a solo situation, or you are inspired to compose that sound
into a piece, or you make it fluid enough to work it into another cycle of different nature.
I was into 4 part 7th chords and I took a "peek" into the hybrids. The sounds were so compelling that I wanted to stay a while, and I realized I
would not gain anything personally by going through in the conventional order. Even triads, spread triads are simple but strangely beautiful in
unexpected ways.
I will say you should have a good working knowledge of inside harmony if you're going to use this over standards, so you can appreciate when
things converge and diverge from harmonic movement of a given piece, and for me, when to intersect the line of harmony as a cadence
approaches. For me, at least, to ignore important markers like modulations, cadences, etc, is to play dangerously with chaos. But who knows
what I'll think when I can really play...!
David

movers

07-15-2013, 08:53 AM

Really loved the article added to my favourites

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mikostep

08-09-2013, 08:02 PM

I've been working on some material from one of micks books lately. It makes me say wow at least 10 times a day because it helps me sort
thing in my head that I learned previously. It helps me conect my knowledge, like universal musical glue. My playing is getting more melodic
sense, fretboard is much clearer now, I can hear notes. All because of cycles. Wow!
And there's more. I'm trying to connect everything with factorial rhythm and the things get realty funny.

driskel

08-10-2013, 01:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikostep
I've been working on some material from one of micks books lately. It makes me say wow at least 10 times a day because it helps me sort thing in my head that I
learned previously. It helps me conect my knowledge, like universal musical glue. My playing is getting more melodic sense, fretboard is much clearer now, I can
hear notes. All because of cycles. Wow!
And there's more. I'm trying to connect everything with factorial rhythm and the things get realty funny.

I agree, I still do not have much to offer in terms of discussion, but I agree completely with your comments regarding melodic sense and
opening up the understanding of the fretboard.
Thanks for keeping this thread alive.

TruthHertz

08-10-2013, 03:01 PM

There are a few projects very close to being launched. First, if anyone has any advice or experience in self publishing, please do share. I'm
interested.
You know the factorial rhythms books, well there's a part two. That's done and ready to go.
The Falling Grace project is also very close to completion. Swallow was just in town and the two of them got together, enthusiastically
discussing that project.
I continue to collect conversations and stories of music, adventure and discovery to be put into the collection. I'm next going to ask about things
he hasn't needed to think about, getting to the roots and fundamentals of music and guitar. Things like "How important is speed and how have
you looked at that over the years? How do you see the connection of harmonic areas? If you could teach the guitar from the ground up,
knowing all you know now, how would the priorities and the order of things be different?... " that kind of stuff.
Oh yeah, when the book with Tim came out, there was about 60 pages of really interesting stuff, some of it pretty out, that was not included
due to the page limit imposed by Berklee Press. If we start an online publishing entity, or do a downloadable project similar to shareware, and if
Tim is amenable then we may finally see that.
So stay tuned. Oh and by the way, on the topic of How Would You Teach Harmony Differently? I was really surprized to hear him say "Don't
teach it from being the 3 scales modal approach, I'd have everyone learn 5 chord types first. Right from the beginning." Heh, yes an interesting
discussion for sure.
He's very interested in knowing what we turn up in this group.
More ongoing. Yeah thanks for keeping the thread growing!
David

marcwhy

08-10-2013, 04:51 PM

Thanks for the updates, David! Can't wait for the Falling Grace variations ..

jeromesteele

08-10-2013, 05:40 PM

Thanks again, David, for generously sharing this wonderful stuff with us. It continually inspires me.

Toddep

08-11-2013, 08:28 PM

Thanks for the great news David...Sure looking forward to it...

TruthHertz

08-11-2013, 11:19 PM

Hey guys. I've decided to collect questions to ask Mick. Questions of the most fundamental nature: How do you look at speed? What is your
picture of the fingerboard? How do you see the heirarchy of things a guitarist must know and how important is the order? What makes a good
solo? How do ideas come to you and how are they realized? Do you think visually? How much in advance do you hear a line? ...that kind of
stuff.
It's going to be a book of "Mick Goodrick looks back in time and gives advice to his young self" kind of book. I've begun a question forum in
another thread. Mick is up for it.
SO many book projects. And here's one of great interest. He wants to take the monster first and second volumes and repackage them into
more user friendly formats, with explanations, examples maybe, a clearer sense of some ways this material can be attacked in better bite sized
pieces. I told him I'd get ideas from your thread-sters. What do you guys think? How might you attack or process the raw material of the
almanacs so they can present the bridge to practical music easier?
Looked at the unpublished material from the Modal Compression book, about another 100 pages. Let's hope Tim is amenable.

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We're excited about using some self publish services. The rhythm book is called Repeat After Me.... or RAM as it will be known. It's got his
artwork in it too. Cool. Rhythmic patterns that repeat but in such a way that you don't know where the 1 is but it's solid too. Amazing
compositional potential for the rhythmic challenging lot of you.
Please keep the experiences coming as well as the questions. This is the only meeting place on the planet for discussion and digesting of this
material. Let's share in the treasures.
David
08-12-2013, 01:05 PM

mikostep

SO many book projects. And here's one of great interest. He wants to take the monster first and second volumes and repackage them into
more user friendly formats, with explanations, examples maybe, a clearer sense of some ways this material can be attacked in better bite sized
pieces. I told him I'd get ideas from your thread-sters. What do you guys think? How might you attack or process the raw material of the
almanacs so they can present the bridge to practical music easier?
To tell you the truth I'm enjoying the volume 3 as it is, without explanations. It makes me think about everything and I really enjoy what I hear.
On the other side, what about things that Mick could suggest that I would not think in a zillion years?
So, to bring this to people I think it should include visual component, guitarist are visually oriented. When I play, if I hear for example C then I
visualy see it on fretboard and all the shapes around it.
It should include examples how to connect things. Maybe best trough standards, blues...
Offcourse, explanations of those terms like msrp... in depth. I think I'm missing something there.
That's for now.
08-12-2013, 03:00 PM

e_del
Wow, been on holiday for a while, and now I find the thread way ahead since... :)

While recollecting some of the pending thoughts I'd add one that maybe I still have written about before.
Talking about "How Would You Teach Harmony Differently", I had a "a-ha!" moment some years ago when I looked at how I learnt harmony.
I started as usual with major scale, and modes, then melodic minor came, and eventually harmonic minor, with some sparkles on harmonic
major.
These latter scales seem more difficult to "digest", but in the end I realised it's a matter of how much time you spend on them
Major scale is easier to me because I worked on it much more time than the others, and there's no "physical" reason that makes one scale
more difficult than another.
They are different "pitch collections", but they take no different effort for my fingers to play one or another.
So here's my thought: instead of going through the man/min mel/min har/maj had/ steps, wouldn't it be more effective to learn the
scales/modes as derivation of e.g. the major scale?
After learning the Ionian scale, go to the one-alterations available, thus getting the Mixolydian (b7), the Lydian (#11), but also the melodic
minor (b3), that normally would pop out more late... then pass to the two-alterations, obtaining Dorian (b3,b7), Lydian dominant(#11, b7),
Mixolydian b6 (b6, b7), etc... then 3 alterations, and so on...
In the end the result should be a new learning path that at the prgressively explores sounds that normally would have been discovered in very
distant moments...
For older people, like me, it's hard to throw away the actual knowledge and restart studying this new way.
The earlier you start (and continue), the more effective it will be. One problem I see in such approach is that it completely twists the learning
path of a student, and since it takes many years, there's the problem of confindence in "being doing the right thing", and not being wasting
precious learning time...
These are just my mumblings.. but I'd like to know what Mick thinks about...
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12/25/2014 10:47 AM

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Gearhead

08-13-2013, 03:38 AM

This sounds awesome, guys. I'm in!

TruthHertz

08-15-2013, 09:22 AM

Things are going to get very interesting in the voice leading world. Mick is in the process of taking material from volume 1 and volume 2 and
creating 6 smaller books, up to about 150 pages, with commentary and a way to go about processing this material in chunks.
There will also be the new rhythms patterns book.
And the Falling Grace book. And Questions with an Amateur, an in depth exploration of the most fundamental topics. And My 15 Minutes of
Fame, the autographical essays and anecdotes book.
The workbook of Voice leading is also an exciting project and that's the one that you especially will be instrumental in putting together. So
please keep teasing wonder, practical ideas, discussions about interpretation, impressions and results and frustrations about these voice leading
approaches.
It's almost as if anyone could take 2 pages of this stuff, make their own world out of it (the way people have made their lives out of drop 2 root
on 5 or 6) and still never be mistaken for anyone else. It can be that easy. The books are scary that way sometimes, there's this feeling that
you're let loose on a whole new continent means that you have to explore the whole thing. No. You can homestead your own little patch and
build connections from there.
I want to know your thoughts as I form a "tourist guide" of Goodchord voice leading.
I have an abstract question for you guys, maybe we might discuss this in Private Messages: Do you think there'd be any interest in a 1 or 2
week workshop/camp at Berklee in Boston during some Summer devoted to working with Mick with things like private instruction, group classes
on all aspects of playing dynamics, voice leading classes and discussions, concerts, exploring free improv with art, opening up your rhythmic
possibilities, and other stuff? And of course the greatest resource, meeting other people and sharing in a community of explorers who would like
the rare chance to make real the things hinted at in these new projects.
Just a question thrown out there.
Thanks
David

yaclaus

08-15-2013, 09:28 AM

I managed to get vol. 1 and 2 through my library. I would love to show you stuff from the books if it is not too much of a legal problem. Now if
only someone could explain me in very simple terms how to utilize the book :D

driskel

08-15-2013, 09:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Things are going to get very interesting in the voice leading world. Mick is in the process of taking material from volume 1 and volume 2 and creating 6 smaller
books, up to about 150 pages, with commentary and a way to go about processing this material in chunks.
There will also be the new rhythms patterns book.
And the Falling Grace book. And Questions with an Amateur, an in depth exploration of the most fundamental topics. And My 15 Minutes of Fame, the
autographical essays and anecdotes book.
The workbook of Voice leading is also an exciting project and that's the one that you especially will be instrumental in putting together. So please keep teasing
wonder, practical ideas, discussions about interpretation, impressions and results and frustrations about these voice leading approaches.
It's almost as if anyone could take 2 pages of this stuff, make their own world out of it (the way people have made their lives out of drop 2 root on 5 or 6) and still
never be mistaken for anyone else. It can be that easy. The books are scary that way sometimes, there's this feeling that you're let loose on a whole new
continent means that you have to explore the whole thing. No. You can homestead your own little patch and build connections from there.
I want to know your thoughts as I form a "tourist guide" of Goodchord voice leading.
Thanks
David

David, all of this is very exciting. If this comes to fruition, you can guarantee that I will purchase the lot. Please reserve me a full set :) I have
hard copies now of Vol 2, Factorial Rhythms. Vol 1 is on the way soon.
This thread has opened my eyes to world of harmony and voice leading that I was not aware of to discover on my own.
As a beginner, what I think would be helpful in the workbook, would be a getting up to speed/prerequisites section. The out of print books are
not for beginners, yet the content has done so much for me all ready, it just requires that I take time away from these to go pick up the
missing pieces. When I joined this thread, you pointed out to me, harmony concepts, voicings, etc... that would make this material more

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tangible. You pointers have help immensely.
Thank you for the update.

JohnoL

08-15-2013, 11:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Things are going to get very interesting in the voice leading world. Mick is in the process of taking material from volume 1 and volume 2 and creating 6 smaller
books, up to about 150 pages, with commentary and a way to go about processing this material in chunks.

I am interested. There is a good chance I will purchase these books when available in case Mick needs any motivation.

marcwhy

08-15-2013, 09:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I have an abstract question for you guys, maybe we might discuss this in Private Messages: Do you think there'd be any interest in a 1 or 2 week workshop/camp
at Berklee in Boston during some Summer devoted to working with Mick with things like private instruction, group classes on all aspects of playing dynamics, voice
leading classes and discussions, concerts, exploring free improv with art, opening up your rhythmic possibilities, and other stuff? And of course the greatest
resource, meeting other people and sharing in a community of explorers who would like the rare chance to make real the things hinted at in these new projects.
Just a question thrown out there.
Thanks
David

Uh, are you kidding?! The "summer band camp" with Mick a few years ago was priceless for me. Sign me up!
Marc

TruthHertz

08-15-2013, 11:21 PM

I mentioned you when I proposed this to Mick. I dare say it was a life memory for everyone that went to that camp.
You will be kept current of all developments.
David

zirenius

08-28-2013, 02:00 AM

Dear David!
that sounds brilliant! Please keep my posted about the new material, I would be glad to have it all!! :-)
About the workshop - as I am from Germay, that would require some logistic thinking on my side,but I would definitely try to make it work.
Also, did you receive my private message about the workbook idea?
All the best,
Sebastian

TruthHertz

08-31-2013, 08:54 AM

Slow.
That's the theme of a discussion I recently had with 2 friends working with the first two volumes.
Goodchord material can be different from "grab and plug" playing that seems to be SOP in many circles. It's about hearing differently, finding a
new causality that guides the movement of your fingers, and letting your ear really be a player in the creative process.
Some things to try out (Thanks Kenji and Sung-Ho):
Find cycles that have particular movements in the upper voice, and use them to create a melodic line as chord solo. You needn't necessarily
think "inside the harmonic box" of the piece, the top voice movement creates the determining factor. Once you figure out how to converge with
a chord within the piece, it becomes an amazing "substitution".
In other words use the cycles from the top voice down.
Another one: Pick a cycle, scale, voicing, page, etc... and work your way through the cycle with each chord being the basis for a short
improvisation. Chord. Improvisation. Next chord. Improvisation.
It will make you very aware of the very subtle shifts of mood from one chord to another. It's also really good for the ear.
Remember and keep in mind that the ear has its own speed. You cannot anticipate nor force the amount of time that it takes for this material
to become "useful." If you work with one sound/cycle relentlessly and consistently, you will have no idea of how long it takes for it to turn from
a solid novel block of ice into something you can shape, use and get musical value from. Patience and knowing how to open your ears is a key

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to unlocking the material.
At some point, you will find those two pages you have been working with will find their way into your playing. A tiny bit at a time. A little more...
you will develop parts of your vocabulary... you will see that cycle completely transformed by the use of the familiar with a new chord scale
form...
Try these things out, and drop your own contributions into this discussion.
Thanks
David

Kiefer.Wolfowitz

09-12-2013, 04:49 AM

At a contemporary discussion of the antithetical method of Robert Conti, I commented on Berklee's focus on the voice-leading texts of Mr.
Goodchord:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz
The Guitar Department at the Berklee School of Music may be extreme in its emphasis on Chords, Scales, and Theory (CST).
Its final-exam syllabus specifies fast scales (in all modes), chords progressions, and arpeggios (http://classes.berklee.edu/gr/levels1-8.pdf). Most performance
students start at level four or above; the level five-eight levels follow the Mr. Goodchord Almanac of Voice Leading by Mick Goodrick, which are discussed in a
dedicated thread here. In its list of performance standards, Berklee's Guitar Department does not post a requirement that students know some particular pieces of
music---not even one classical, folk (e.g. Greensleeves or John Barleycorn), country, blues, jazz, or rock standard!
The CST approach has a long history at the The Berklee School of Music, which had a curriculum inspired by the Joseph Shillinger System of music.
Nobody can deny that Berklee has been successful at educating jazz guitarists for decades. I've only seen statements of admiration for Berklee from previous
students and from professional guitarists (who had not studied at Berklee). There must be some professional guitarists, like Conti (?), who would have found Mars
more compatible than Berklee!
;)

TruthHertz

09-12-2013, 05:53 AM

I have to say that I do agree with what you are saying. In the time I've spent getting to know this ever expanding universe known as Jazz
Guitar, or modern guitar as a genre or discipline, it's taken decades of constant exposure and immersion for me to even feel I have any kind of
foothold in what is around me, no less what tools are necessary to equip a young student going into the world.
When I started this thread, it was not and still is not intended to be a debate on the perceived relevance of this particular tool in the context of
the institutional curricula, but really a place where those wishing to explore the potential of a very different, and largely unexplored resource
could take part in a community of linear and harmonic expansion.
I see this material, the systematic and exhaustive cataloguing of linear harmony very exciting, specifically in a genre that for whatever reason
has found a sound in a root in bass voice (drop 2) perceptual template.
Like Slonimsky's thesaurus of scales, it's a tool. It's not my intention to debate the merits of a college's final requirements, that discussion is
worthy of a thread of its own. It is worthy of a lively debate within that institution. It's worthy of a letter to the Berklee College of Music. It's
certainly worthy of consideration in defining what the toolset a student would be equipped with, how much knowledge, history, real life
experience, peripheral knowledge, instruction in process, reflection on the state of the art... etc. that a student should have at the point that a
student is deemed to have completed that education.
However, this thread is merely a small place where a group of us have gathered to tackle and realize our individual potentials through work
with a largely unexplored tool: Usable voice leading in modern improvisational music on guitar.
Kiefer, I'd welcome a thread dedicated to the discussion of Berklee's or other comparative institutions' final requirements and the implications,
implied deficiencies, perceived strengths of the knowledge base they entail. As I said, there's so much that we are here to explore OUTSIDE of
the Berklee system (this is not a Berklee sponsored thread, I assure you) and it's been a place where I feel some of the most important work
with this material is taking place.
Mars or Conti's universe, this is not Berklee. Please don't confuse us with things outside the study.
That's all this is. Humble advancing guitarists putting their dedication outside the institutional context.
David

e_del

09-12-2013, 06:11 AM

sorry... maybe I lost some bit along the way... does Berklee education path rely on out-of-print material ?
(or maybe it's referred to the time when the Almanacs were available?)

TruthHertz

09-12-2013, 10:04 AM

Heh both. There are extracts and printed pages from the, as we all know, unobtainable volumes. It's one way that Berklee feels students
should be responsible for not knowing just grabs, but how they can work with one another in a melodic way.
As many of you have by this time discovered, you can take your 4 inversions of drop 2, for example, and play them over changes as root
position "markers" of harmonic obligation. Or you can form Bach like lines with these same forms that lead a melody in each voice. There was a
time that this was considered impossible. Mick saw that there was indeed a way that this could be done through cycles, and it's those cycles
that students are "forced" to be aware of.

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I think it's Berklee's way of making these possibilities an area that students should become adept in.
Admittedly, many students don't care to hear this way, nor do their teachers even have proficiency in voice leading, so it does ask the question
of whether the original vision is being effectively and practically addressed.
Mark Simos, a great teacher in the singer songwriting department took it upon himself to study with Mick and he's working with his students to
find alternatives to the 3 chord harmony that that genre relies on. Some of his efforts are turning up some really great results; based on voice
leading.
But in answer to your question, no, the books are not necessary to pass the requirements. In answer to the bigger question, I know there is
probably more being done within our group here, many fold, than is done by the vast majority at Berklee in the direction of finding new
harmonic possibilities in modern creative improvisation.
Recently I got an email from Ben Monder. He's working with this material now. His response is one of Wow and amazement. And he will use it.
You can count on that. I think Berklee is hoping that students of Ben's spirit will be exposed to the tools that will allow them to educate
themselves as they continue to grow and advance. It's an unfortunate situation that the source material in its raw form is no longer easy to
come by.
That's why we have this group.
David

jeromesteele

09-17-2013, 12:13 AM

Mick Goodrick Goodchord Almanac Volumes 1 and 2 RARE | eBay
This makes me sort of resent capitalism. Mick Goodrick is making no money off of this resale and the poster is pricing them in a range that is
way beyond the budget of the students and developing musicians who would benefit so tremendously from these volumes.

TruthHertz

09-17-2013, 09:38 AM

Wow, great sales strategy: make your books impossible to get. It seems each time a great jazz musician dies, there is more laudatory press
than ever was in life. Death: great career move for a jazz musician. I've got to know what he thinks of this. Ha. David

bako

09-25-2013, 05:52 PM

How do people deal with the 4 way close chords while practicing this material?
7th's------1357 3571 5713 7135
TBN#1---1257 2571 5712 7125
TBN#2----1247 2471 4712 7124
etc.

TruthHertz

09-28-2013, 04:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bako
How do people deal with the 4 way close chords while practicing this material?
7th's------1357 3571 5713 7135
TBN#1---1257 2571 5712 7125
TBN#2----1247 2471 4712 7124
etc.

Do you mean physically playing material that will self destruct the musculature in your hands? Or are you talking conceptually?
David

bako

09-28-2013, 08:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Do you mean physically playing material that will self destruct the musculature in your hands? Or are you talking conceptually?
David

That is seriously funny.
There are a select number of this collection that are playable depending on hand reach, scale length and willingness to test the limits of a
human hand.

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Physically speaking, what do people do to address all members of this great on piano,
torturous on guitar family of voicings. Arpeggiation is probably the most obvious move.
I also organize them into various fragment combinations.
Of course, these solutions all take more than one initiation of sound.
I am just curious as to how others negotiate this situation or do they simply move on to the next page.

TruthHertz

09-28-2013, 08:42 AM

Hmmmm, funny you should mention it. Yes, bako, that really is the most important question of this entire thread and you've asked it: How does
this material become useful, not to mention playable.
Two days ago Ben (M) was showing me some absolutely beautiful things he was working on, things unlike anything I'd ever heard or imagined,
even from him. No surprize there, but after he was done he said "cycle 2, and cycle 6 with my own kind of voice leading thing." What he played
combined notes of different lengths, different combinations of single line, two and three part articulations weaved into an intricate line that he'll
eventually see popping up in a solo.
Maybe this is not a direct answer to your question, but it's hit me like a bolt of lightning recently- this material, as complex as it is, is a template
for your own sounds as much as a melodic major scale is a template for a chord solo passage.
Everyone that's been diving into volume 2 and 3 of late has said some uncannily similar things, you've got to stake out a couple of pages you
like, set up camp and work with them deeply, commitedly and well beyond being just able to play them without thinking. You've got to totally
have them become the furniture in your house, the pair of broken in running shoes, the guitar you are no longer aware of. And then something
remarkable and totally unanticipated happens: your own creative propensities find a new language and posture to the forms you create, things
you write, ideas you use to develop a solo and you are in the voice led world.
Now this makes the whole idea of 3 volumes of endless pages even more intimidating, but it also is one way to break into how they can be
used-and it actually makes it ironically less daunting. It also establishes a precedent for how all the other pages can be approached. It's the
instruction manual you write yourself.
Speaking of which, and in part answer to your original question, I was reading the intro to volume 2, and in particular the suggestions of how
Joe Diorio tackled some pages. These progressions don't have to be played in direct sequence as written. Those are indications of movements
converging in certain points, but what goes on in between is also open, very open to interpretation. Connect two chords with passing notes
(something beautifully demonstrated in a Lage Lund talk I saw yesterday), or play two diads against one another, or put passing notes into that
line of notes, or make it a dialogue between a single note and an articulated triad (and as the root moves within the chord voicing, this gets
really interesting, particularly in later volumes) and on and on.
Once you have your own take on this, it doesn't even matter if it sounds like the chord on the page, you've got linear material at the speed of
thought that you can use, material of harmonic and melodic density that once played in real time will have everyone asking "How is he DOING
that?" and it all comes from your own broken down and reassembled system. I'm inspired to write a series of etudes of linear combination
where the chords are the structure but not the content. We'll see where that goes.
I suppose I'm saying that with you guys, and those people who are working really hard on uncovering what this all means, there's going to be
an entirely new spectrum of sound, that has this kind of voicing at it's beginning, but the deeper it goes, the less you'll be able to recognize the
original pages.
Does this have anything to do with your question bako?
David

bako

09-28-2013, 11:08 AM

David,
It's not the simple answer but intriguing all the same.

mikostep

09-29-2013, 04:15 AM

Hello guys,
I've made a simple decision. From now on I will work only on Mick's books. I have volume 3 and creative chordal harmony written with Tim
Miller. I need volume 1 and volume 2 and that's it. I'm enjoying playing Guitar like never after I found this deep well.
Regards.

marcwhy

09-29-2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikostep
Hello guys,
I've made a simple decision. From now on I will work only on Mick's books. I have volume 3 and creative chordal harmony written with Tim Miller. I need volume 1
and volume 2 and that's it. I'm enjoying playing Guitar like never after I found this deep well.
Regards.

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That's quite a commitment; I would guess, however, if you told this to Mick, he would say, "Well .... I don't know about that ..."
Enjoy the journey, though!

TruthHertz

09-29-2013, 11:03 PM

Or he might say "Been there, done that. I'm really glad somebody's getting something out of it." which was the pleased reaction after all the
comments on the back of the Mick/Tim book. The material's like an ocean: it's deep enough to get lost in or worse, but if you learn your way
around even a small part of it, there's uncharted land in your hands. And mikostep, share your discoveries! Let us know how you practice this, if
you create musical etudes, how it makes an appearance in your solos and compositions.
Have fun
David

e_del

09-30-2013, 05:29 AM

Back to the roots... MSRP ???
I'm going back to "triadic playing" after listening to some non-jazz guitarists, Carl Verheyen and Eric Johnson in particular, which make great use
of spread voicing.
I realised how much I neglected these voicing and how much more effective they could be in a solo comping situation, so I re opened the
almanac, vol.1 page 1, and went by the spread voicing part only.
Wonderful sounds. Working on the single cycle2's from one inversion fingering to the next (talking about the root chord).
What is still quite cumbersome to me is the M.S.R.P. at the end of the page.
I understand that it is some kind of "fingerprint" for the cycle and every voice in the cycle is horizontally queued that way, but I still can't figure
out what use could I make... and why it's subdivided three notes at a time...
Should it be a shortcut to memorize the voice leading, or is there something else?
Anyway, just playing those triads (some are real triads, some are 3 note spread voicing with larger intervals) brings me to some "deja vu"
chord progression... there has to be some meaning to it!.. but I don't quite get it... for now. :)

e_del

10-03-2013, 05:15 PM

A little update after starting back from the beginning...
After a few weeks spent practicing only the first cycle2 page (C major triads), I find myself more and more comfortable in playing whatever
triad (diatonic) in whatever position just looking where a single note is on the fretboard (root, or 3rd, or 5th).
The side effect was that when I went to the next cycle (cycle4) I wasn't restarting from scratch, and the learning seems quicker (still didn't
finish...), so I presume (hope) that the next cycles will be still quicker to learn...
The key seems to be going in depth with the first pages, the other will follow more easily...
This confirms the fact that the almanac is not meant to be studied completely from the beginning to the end.
I'd rather start to consider the various pages as many "entry points", but after that will be easier than you thought moving chords by fourths, or
sixths, etc...
Does this make sense to anyone?

ronjazz

10-03-2013, 11:01 PM

I studied with Mick, and hung out with him for years at the beginning of my career, and I'm sure he'd respond to this thread by saying "you're
all right." He was never one for pat answers, clearly.

bako

10-03-2013, 11:17 PM

e_del
The more familiar you are with the source material, the easier it will be to place that material in a new context.

TruthHertz

10-03-2013, 11:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjazz
I studied with Mick, ..." He was never one for pat answers, clearly.

Yeah, Pat was always quite capable of giving his own answers.
David

Double V

10-04-2013, 03:14 PM

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Hey Folks!
Great thread here. Really cool discussion about how to use the Goodrick material.
It's a lot to dig into but so rewarding! It can be so musical!
Here's an "ambient" take on playing through E melodic minor drop 2 voicings in cycle 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNN-xBpQ4_0

TruthHertz

10-04-2013, 08:36 PM

Nice! I'm working on volume 2. Don't think these books need to be taken in order. As a matter of fact, I just opened up to 3 part 4ths spread
voicings. Just to throw a dart on the wall and jump in. Wow. I'm going to stay here a while. Melodic minor. Cycles 7 and 6 at the moment. ideas
pouring out just getting a buzz from sounds I have never heard before.
David

srlank

10-06-2013, 01:12 AM

I don't have any of these books, but thx to some of the PDFs and examples in this thread, I've been able to get a better idea of how Harvey
put his example together in the above video to create some beautiful sounds. Thx for sharing.

António Silva

10-10-2013, 06:22 AM

I I've seen the books. It has a lot of pages but I think the theory can be handle down in a few pages. I know that theory because I'm a student
of the composition method "Equal Interval Sysytem" by Lyle Spud Murphy (that probably influenced Goodrick). The voice leading really changed
my playing.
http://ararur.bandcamp.com

TruthHertz

10-10-2013, 04:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by António Silva
I'm a student of the composition method "Equal Interval Sysytem" by Lyle Spud Murphy (that probably influenced Goodrick). The voice leading really changed my
playing.

Very interesting! A number of people in this forum have been very curious about EIS.
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...al-system.html
It might be worth a resurrection.
Could you talk a little about it either here or on the thread linked in the above address?
Mick's voice leading is based on the fleshing out of Joseph Schillinger's principles. Schillinger was a very interesting theoritician, who in his
lifetime sought to find mathematical commonalities in diverse fields of visual art, music, design, etc... The voice leading is one area where his
ideas can be seen. Composers have used his permutations, improvisors also in some very high levels of permutations, symmetrical scales, 2
octave scales, and other uses. Very fascinating guy.
It seems that the more that guitarists are bringing things like Goodchord, Schillinger, EIS into their composition (and I include thoughtful soloing)
the more it seems that the movements of harmony on the guitar need to find both horizontal and vertical movements together.
For a long time, guitarists have thought in terms of "along the strings" and "across the strings" when conceiving line and chord. Anyone working
with voice leading needs to be fluent in both movements at once. This can be daunting when you're used to one or the other. But that's the
beautiful thing about the Goodchord, it's mapped out for you. You have the notes, and it's up to you to find the navigation on the fingerboard
(and the wonky interval layout) and it's up to you to assimilate the sounds. But once you do, there's a way of playing that used to be thought of
as the composer's or pianist's domain.
I'd really like to know a little about how EIS has been translated into guitar playing. António, would you share some of this with us here or on
the other thread?
Thanks, and thanks for turning me onto this.
David

JakeAcci

10-11-2013, 08:52 PM

HEY GUYS
Earlier this year I posted some clip messing around with cycles within symmetrical scales that do not repeat at the octave. In the past couple of
weeks I've been digging these up again, I'm finding them pretty wild and opening my ears up to some interesting movement.
Here is cycle 2 within one of those scales, 7th chords in drop 3 with a basic arpeggio pattern, and I picked an arbitrary starting and stopping
point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp_TDD6GJ2s

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I am excited about the personal directions one can take the material.
My goal is to get some of these sequences ingrained so I can use them in solo improvisation.

e_del

10-12-2013, 02:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Here is cycle 2 within one of those scales, 7th chords in drop 3 with a basic arpeggio pattern, and I picked an arbitrary starting and stopping point.

Very interesting!
What scale did you use in this particular example?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
I am excited about the personal directions one can take the material.
My goal is to get some of these sequences ingrained so I can use them in solo improvisation.

Can you think to these sequences in terms of notes, or scale degrees?
At my level the only way I could manage this material would be as fingering positions.
Maybe I want to "run before I learn to walk", but these sounds are so intriguing that I would explore them a bit anyway, even if only to figure
out what will be the next thing to study... next life! :-)

TruthHertz

10-12-2013, 05:48 AM

Yeah Jake! Beautiful. ' can't wait to see what grows from that seed. Yeah, how you take any particular voicing, how you break it up, articulate
it, rhythmicize it, arpeggiate or chord it changes it profoundly. I'd love to hear how this is changing the way you hear and relate to the
instrument.
e_del, don't think of this as the running, because everyone who jumps into this pool starts off as a total novice. And I have changed the way I
look at this material many times in the course of studying it. Finger exercise, ear training (big aspect and the biggest part of what I'm pulling
out at the moment), diatonic exercise, fitting on changes, harmonic substitution, compositional raw ore from the big mine...
I really think that as a part of learning the guitar, having this as "etude material" is so exciting. Remember that it only seems advanced and
scary from this perspective. Anybody can do it, and once you do it you have two amazing changes in your life: 1) you have access to these
amazing sounds that most likely nobody else on the planet is playing and 2) you no longer have to put off knowing it.
That's a funny one. I recently began a thread on What's Stopping You from having what you want on the guitar? and it became apparent as
soon as I asked the question that if you want it, and the material is there, it can be yours.
Oh, on a not so oblique aside, there's a guitarist out there who's been making amazingly exquisite music in a similar course of progress. Watch
this guy, he's one to know:
http://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/?s=monder
http://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/pr...itar-lesson-2/
There's a new level of literacy within this generation of players, and I feel that the tools that are needed may go a little beyond simple
transcription of solos, because each player can make their own permutation of the material.
It's just a matter of what you want to do with the time that you have right now.
David
http://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/pr...itar-lesson-1/
http://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/pr...itar-lesson-2/

JakeAcci

10-12-2013, 08:53 AM

Quote:
Very interesting!
What scale did you use in this particular example?

Thanks e_Del!
The scale is
1 2 b3 #4 5 b7 7, and then the pattern repeats starting on the 7...so for example if we started it on C it would be

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C D Eb F# G Bb B C# D F F# A A# - does that make sense? Think of it 'starting over' when it gets to the B. The sequence takes 72 notes
(6*12) to start over again at C.
When we harmonize this scale we get minma7, +ma7, +ma7, ma7, ma7, minma7, and then the pattern starts over...but unlike normal diatonic
scales, when we do a cycle it doesn't go back to the first chord after seven steps in the cycle, in this case it takes 72 steps - so the starting and
ending points are, uh..."compositional discretion" how about that hah!
Quote:
Can you think to these sequences in terms of notes, or scale degrees?

I'm trying to think of it as movement from one chord to to the next, or, more ideally, three or four melodies (however big the chord is, in the
case of the video example they were 4 note chords) moving together, and not concerning myself with a tonal center, instead just playing with
the movement.
Improvising solo, there are a lot of things in my harmonic trick bag that I'm getting a little tired of, they feel too predictable at times. These
"chord progressions" definitely aren't predictable to my ears, so I'm just trying to absorb the sound of new movement.
A simple way to look at it, in a tonal context, is that, like the giant steps turnaround sequence, it is a number of steps to get to a destination.
So if the first cycle is Cminma7 D+ma7 Eb+ma7 Gbma7 Gma7 Bbminma7 Bminma7 (then the pattern of chords repeats on the Bminma7) then
the information revealed are things like, what's a 4-step harmonic process to resolve to Bm? You work backwards four steps from Bm and you
get a cadence....Eb+ma7 Gbma7 Gma7 Bbminma7 Bm...you see?
I'm just opening my ears up to these very different ways of going chord to chord. The beauty of it to me is that there is this definite
consistency to all the movement, but there's no sort of dominant substitution relationship or anything like that, or even a relationship of keys
(like, borrowing from some mode of melodic minor or something, but still basically being in a minor key.) Instead the weight of it is all in
intervallic movement. Yes there are clearly tonal centers or implied changes of mode, but it's not really the point, or what brought me to
these ideas.
Hope that makes sense. It's taken me a lot of steps to look at chords this way (or want to look at chords this way) and then find some use for
the sounds.

Quote:
Maybe I want to "run before I learn to walk", but these sounds are so intriguing that I would explore them a bit anyway, even if only to figure out what will be the
next thing to study... next life! :-)

I guess the simplest introduction to it would probably be the cadence-oriented thinking...instead of F#7 to Bm, why not Bbminmaj7 to Bm (From
the above pattern.) Instead of C#m7b5 to F#7 to Bm, why not Gma7 to Bbminma7 to Bm. Or double the rate of change and use the four chord
sequence Eb+ma7 Gbma7 Gma7 Bbminma7 Bm
And we don't have to end on the minor chord, any of the chords could be 'resolutions.'
4 chord cadence to Gma7:
Cminma7 D+ma7 Eb+ma7 Gbma7 | Gma7

I can hear the sirens now....
PS if you are going to play around with these specific progressions, make sure to voice lead DOWN, so it's not just constant structure/parallel
movement going up in 2nds and 3rds.

bako

10-12-2013, 11:12 AM

Jake,
Without writing it out, it seems that the basic structure is a hexatonic derived from C harmonic minor
C D Eb F# G Bb (omitting the A)
This pattern then goes thru a cycle of ma7 or m2 putting it through every key before coming back to start.
C B Bb A Ab G F# F E Eb D Db // C
Wouldn't that be 72 -- 12 X 6 or 73 to state the final C note.
I have had some fun dealing with the intersection of different keys.
I will try and share some of that when I get a chance.
This seems like another path into related material.

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10-12-2013, 11:22 AM

JakeAcci
Ah thanks, you're right, I did the math wrong. You mean G harmonic minor? C D Eb F# G Bb, omit the A
As for the rest, that's neat! What kind of harmonizations or applications come to mind?

10-12-2013, 11:36 AM

bako
If a harmonic sequence leads to the destination, then it is functioning on some level, which kind of makes it functional.
In that sense it is cadential and part of the continuum of possible paths to arrival.

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bako

10-12-2013, 12:02 PM

Yes, G harmonic minor, I meant to correct that, but got distracted thinking about the rest of the post.
I deleted the sequence I posted earlier because I saw some flaws in it's ability to generate 7th chords in 3rds.
Perhaps the better path would be 3 note modal compression pairs in the context of the overlapping hexatonics.

JakeAcci

10-12-2013, 12:13 PM

Maybe a similar approach to similar notes, but a little simpler would just be
C D Eb F# G, then up a whole step to start the pattern again:
C D Eb F# G
A B C D# E
F# G# A C C#
Eb F Gb A Bb
C
Hey, as a line, that's pretty cool!

bako

10-12-2013, 12:40 PM

or even simpler linked tetrachords
CDEbF#
GABbC#
DEFG#
ABCD#
EF#GA#
BC#DE#
F#G#AC
DbEbFbG
AbBbCbD
EbFGbA
BbCDbE
FGAbB
C

JakeAcci

10-12-2013, 01:02 PM

Neat!

I think it's interesting and sometimes challenging to try to figure out how to make this stuff correspond to Goodrick's approach to "cycles"

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Simplest approach with your collection above, though not necessarily staying true to the sound of the 'scale' at all times:

cycle 2 7ths:

Cm7 Dma7 Ebma7 F#m7 Gm7 Ama7 Bbma7 C#m7 etc

cycle 3

Cm7 Ebma7 Gm7 Bbma7 Dm7 Fma7 etc

cycle 4

Cm7 F#m7 Bbma7 Ema7 Am7 (repeat pattern on Am7)

cycle 5

m7 chords moving in 5ths (Cm7 Gm7 Dm7 Am7)

cycle 6

Cm7 Ama7 Fma7 Ebm7 Bm7 (pattern repeats on Bm7)

etc

In each case it's patterned movement of chords that take a while to come back to the "1"

marcwhy

10-13-2013, 11:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Oh, on a not so oblique aside, there's a guitarist out there who's been making amazingly exquisite music in a similar course of progress. Watch this guy, he's one
to know:
http://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/?s=monder
http://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/pr...itar-lesson-2/
There's a new level of literacy within this generation of players, and I feel that the tools that are needed may go a little beyond simple transcription of solos,
because each player can make their own permutation of the material.
It's just a matter of what you want to do with the time that you have right now.
David

"A guitarist?!" What a funny way to introduce Ben! Hopefully (most) everyone here knows of Ben, and if not, start listening now! I actually like a
lot of his sideman albums vs. his frontman albums, but they're all good.

bako
There are many permutations of what can be done with single scale voice led cycles.
Needless to say, the possibilities expand exponentially with the addition of a bi-tonal element.
Attached is one possible scenario.

bako
Here's one more take on B/C bi-tonal thing in cycle 2.
This one uses 2 lower notes of the C and 2 upper notes of B as a starting point.
You may want to adjust octaves in some places.

TruthHertz

10-14-2013, 12:20 AM
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10-14-2013, 01:27 PM
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11-18-2013, 10:23 AM

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Appeared on ebay today:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mr-Goodchord...E:B:SS:US:3160
Mr. Goodchord's Almanac of Guitar Voice-Leading for the Year 2001 and Beyond. by Mick Goodrick. Vol. 1. Name That Cord. Compiled and Edited by
Mitch Haupers. Heavy Book. Under Condition, they gave me only 3 Choices. New, Used or for Parts. This is like new, very close to new. . Questions are
Welcome and Encouraged.

Somebody's volume 1.
David

jster

11-18-2013, 12:07 PM

I actually happen to have money in my paypal account right now and I would buy it if for no other reason than it seems like a good investment
opportunity! Of course I'd also like to peek inside and see what all the hubub is about! Unfortunately, they won't deliver to Europe. I just have
one question for you guys: On a percentage scale, to what degree is it guitar independent? It seems guitar independent when you guys talk
about exploring new sounds. But "Guitar" is right there in the title. I never understood that. Thanks.

jeromesteele

11-18-2013, 01:42 PM

I am on this, thanks for sharing David.

JakeAcci

11-18-2013, 08:53 PM

Jster I guess the only way it is restricted to the guitar is that it includes restrictions with the guitar in mind. But it is not very guitar dependent.

TruthHertz

11-18-2013, 09:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jster
On a percentage scale, to what degree is it guitar independent? It seems guitar independent when you guys talk about exploring new sounds. But "Guitar" is right
there in the title. I never understood that. Thanks.

Yes the title is a little deceiving. It's by no means specific to the guitar world, as a matter of fact many things in the almanacs are not possible
to play on the guitar without some thought to use of diads or even necessitating duo situations to realize. That said, in many ways it's an issue
and solution that is very topical to guitar players especially: Thinking of harmony in 3 or 4 independent voices instead of a series of parallel drop
2 grabs that have been the way for many decades.
It's actually piano players who have been getting a lot of mileage from the Goodchord volumes because the movement of voices can be easily
played and seen, and because all of the notes don't need to be covered by one hand as with the guitar.
It's also been proven to be a powerful compositional and arranging tool. The notation itself indicates only voice movement, and not staff
notation, or instrument specific notation. It's designed to be as concrete and adaptively abstract to show voice movements through intervallic
root movement cycles.
I think because it was written by a theorist/guitarist, one acutely aware of the problematic nature of playing harmony on a fingerboard
instrument, Mick devised a method of seeing harmony, not from the convenience of grid form fingerings but from a purely musical perspective
of voice movements. So for the guitarist, it's left to the user to figure out how to actually play these things (you do need to know all your notes
and locations on the fingerboard. There is no hand holding as far as where and how to play these cycles) and the system does lend itself to use
on any instrument.
Because of this, it's also a great ear training method, and it's quite a workout that will get the typical guitarist seeing the fingerboard in a very
new way, as the movement of roots across the fingerboard as well as the line of movements within the chord progression.
The possibilities of you coming up with a sound nobody else has even heard are staggering. It's so rich, you may indeed wind up with the facility
to improvise with the chops of a Bach chorale. But don't ever think this is an easy way to plug and play. This is very much a do it yourself
construction kit with a huge catalogue of what can be done. It's actually mathematically exhaustive. If you can voice a chord, it's in there. If a
chord can move smoothly from one to another, it's in there.
That's the way I see it anyway.
David

e_del

12-03-2013, 04:44 AM

Hello everybody,
I'm posting here in the "goodchord repository" thread, that I hope will last forever, to revive it a bit as I use it as a reference to retrieve
informations when I don't remember them (and with age it happens more and more :smile-new: )

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just a brief side note: I just found this article in a blog
http://musiccomptech.blogspot.it/201...ce-cycles.html
It made me think that actually the "goodchord cycles" are not exhaustive, and more options of voice leading exist, that are effective and usable
(in case you found the almanacs limiting.. hahaha)...

bako

12-03-2013, 08:44 AM

e_del,
The blog post presents a 2 chord sequence (from diatonic cycle 6) progressing in a 4ths in a chromatic environment.
The books largely address cycles in the context of scales. For better or worse there remain many more possibilities beyond the already
abundant collection in the books.
Chromatic cycles
m2---C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B
ma2--C D E F# G# Bb // F G A B Db Eb
m3---C Eb Gb A // F Ab B D // Bb Db E G
ma3---C E G# // F A C# // Bb D F# // Eb G B
4th---C F Bb Eb Ab Db F# B E A D G
#4/b5--C F# // F B // Bb E // Eb A // Ab D // Db G
5th-----C G D A E B F# Db Ab Eb Bb F
#5/m6---C Ab E // F Db A // Bb F# D // Eb B G
ma6------C A F# Eb // F D B Ab // Bb G E C#
m7-------C Bb Ab Gb E D // F Eb Db B A G
ma7------C B Bb A Ab G Gb F E Eb D Db
m2,ma7,4th and 5th progress through all 12 keys in one move
ma2 and m7 progress through all 12 keys in two moves
m3 and ma6 progress through all 12 keys in three moves
ma3 and m6 progress through all 12 keys in four moves
#4/b5 progress through all 12 keys in six moves
I ordered each group within the cycles that don't hit all 12 keys in 4ths,
which offers a logical way to address the remaining keys.
Basically one can choose a chord type or a sequence of chords and consider that as a unit
and move it through a cycle. From there, just voice lead the resultant progression.

james8382

12-04-2013, 10:17 PM

If anyone is interested in obtaining the Goodchord books, PM me.

TruthHertz

12-18-2013, 11:38 AM

There is so much here that pertains to the way Goodchord, Voice leading, linear harmony relates to the existing world of grabs and blocks.
Just had to share this.
David
http://www.youtube.com/embed/rPovnp3Dly4?rel=0

Gearhead

12-20-2013, 07:50 AM

David, thanks for sharing.
Hal's lectures are just great!
Happy holiday season to you guys1
Uli

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edh

12-20-2013, 05:39 PM

Thanks David. I like the way he teaches.

guitarralolo

12-25-2013, 11:04 PM

Thanks to EVERYONE for this thread!! Really helpful and valuable information!!
All the best from Argentina!
Pedro

driskel

01-11-2014, 04:11 PM

This is what I posted in the following thread:
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/compi...tml#post390056
Great thread! Slightly off topic, but I think it applies. The way I have been practicing inversions is by using approaches out of Mick Goodrick's
out of print Almanacs using different cycles. It helps 2 things immediately, learning and solidifying an understanding of the chord
inversions/fingering and teaches great voice leading examples. I also go slow and say the chord note/numbers as I go along. It is a slow
process but gets better everyday. It is also very musical.
For example in the Key of Bb Major the diatonic chords in the key are:
BbM7 • Cm7 • Dm7 • EbM7 • F7 • Gm7 • Am7b5
Cycles: 6 would follow:
BbM7 • Gm7 • EbM7 • Cm7 • Am7b5 • F7 • Dm7 :||
This particular cycles descends. So the order of inversions (0 denoting root in the bass) will look like this as we descend.
BbM7 • Gm7 • EbM7 • Cm7 • Am7b5 • F7 • Dm7 :||
0•1•2•3•0•1•2
3•0•1•2•3•0•1
2•3•0•1•2•3•0
1 • 2 • 3 • 0 • 1 • 2 • 3 :||
For example this week, I am doing cycle 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 in drop 2 and drop 3 on all string sets. Every week I cycle my key to next key in the
cycle of 4ths.
If I have any typos, let me know.
Thanks

guitarralolo

02-06-2014, 10:57 PM

I've just found this scribd document called "mick Goodrick voice leading" which seems to be the introduction to the frist volume of the
Goodchord books. Scribd just won't let me download the document or view more pages, but anyway I find it interesting.

e_del

03-11-2014, 03:49 PM

hello everybody,
I'm sorry, but it seems that my google web page with the chord cycles app doesn't work anymore, so I turned it off..
Probably something changed in the javascript management by google, that broke the script routines I used... custom javascript routines were a
tweak, as normally google has some limits on what can be contained in a web page...
Not a big loss, as I noticed no more than one visit per day to the page, but anyway, since I also used it at some time, I set up an emergency
google spreadsheet with similar functionality, although less robust and responsive...
If anyone is interested, I'll be glad to share it via google docs... just ring a bell with your google account to [email protected].
Oh, and by the way, if there was any joomla/wordpress developer around, I'd be happy to discuss about what it takes to port it into a module...
:-)
bye for now,
enrico

mikostep
Here are something for the dinner... More of it to come soon.

04-17-2014, 07:11 PM
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TruthHertz

04-20-2014, 09:49 AM

Hey y'all. Does anybody know of any self publishing solutions for spiral bound books? The Almanacs were originally done this way for good
reason: They can sit on a music stand and you can seriously immerse yourself in one grouping, change to any other section without hassle. It
kind of goes with the non-linearity of the whole almanacs.
I've found that some times they are intimidating because there's this notion that you should start at one end and it's a progressive process. Not
so. Once you get the idea of cycles, how you might use them (you don't even need this to get sounds in your ear) you can drop yourself in any
volume, any page and find the place to open your voice leading world. This was one reason the third volume is so hard to find, the sounds in
there are really elusively outside the conventional expectations because the core voicings are different, but the approach and what you can use
them for is not really any more advanced than the volume 1 material.
Yes, There's Staples printing, but if there's a source anyone knows, someone who does printing, isbn and wire binding, please let me know
ASAP.
A quick synopsis. The rhythm books are the first ones to be made available, one new, Repeat After Me, and one re-issue Factorial Rhythms.
I've just begun working with Factorials with someone on the Ear Training curriculum at Berklee. It's proving to be an amazing learning
supplement, seeing rhythms in patterns rather than reading note values. In 3 weeks he went from the bottom end of the class to ace'ing the
midterm. It's how you see it.
Next in the ready to go is Falling Grace, the catalogue of improvisational ideas, devices and techniques demonstrated and played through a
voluminous series of variations on Swallow's Falling Grace. Recordings of each accompany this work, recorded by Mick.
The Almanacs will be republished in smaller volumes. This is to fit with more bite sized and intuitive/logical breakdown of the material. You have
to still do it yourself but the divisions into chord scale family types will help those working on one particular aural grouping and its possibilities.
This is the reason I'm asking about wire bound solutions.
I'm working on Mick's bio, complete with pieces and interviews with some of his former students and colleagues, materials of interesting
thought provoking "concept lessons" and a treasure chest of anecdotes with their own lessons within. It'll be very readable and a lot of fun.
And a whole bunch more projects. Mick is retiring from a VERY long career of teaching both at Berklee and New England Conservatory. These
projects, and maybe special workshops, weeklong clinics, or other projects will keep him busy in his own way. The intersection of art (he's
spending a lot of time on his drawing and watercolours) and music is always turning out new stuff as is an ongoing exploration of right/left brain
neurology study in learning and teaching.
It's not only a new chapter, but a new volume.
If you can get back to me on publishing suggestions, comments or questions, I'd welcome all your options and experiences.
I was considering deactivating my membership on this forum but I think I'll stay a part, largely because this Goodchord thread and the
Advancing guitarist associated with it are taking the future of guitar into new places. I do want to be a part of that.
I see so many changes at Berklee, and in the next year or so many huge giants and pioneers of guitar will be leaving the teaching ranks in the
guitar department: Mick, Jon Damian, Garrison Fewell, to name three off the top of my head. Mick will continue to break new ground, this
forum will be a place to see it as it develops. So it goes on.
Thanks
David

e_del

04-20-2014, 11:33 AM

that's great!
If there's anything I can contribute with, I'll be happy to...
Looking forward for good(chord)news !

Gearhead

04-20-2014, 01:54 PM

Thanks for the update, David. That's exciting news!
This thread has been pretty much the only reason for me to spend time on this forum. Too bad if you left!
Cheers,
Uli

james8382

04-20-2014, 11:09 PM

I think Lulu has this as an option. Here's the link:
Self Publishing, Book Printing and Publishing Online - Lulu

TruthHertz

04-21-2014, 07:50 AM

james8382, Thanks! This looks very promising. It could be exactly what we're looking for. I'll run the options through today and who knows...
Great.
David

12/25/2014 10:47 AM

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kevykevy

04-21-2014, 11:41 AM

David --- sent you a PM and email with print info.

james8382

04-22-2014, 11:53 AM

Glad to help. Please keep us up to date regarding this (and other developments in the Goodrick/Goodchord universe) before leaving forever!

scook

04-22-2014, 12:02 PM

I'd like to add my name to those who have enjoyed this thread and would be interested in seeing where it leads.

steve

TruthHertz

04-22-2014, 12:41 PM

Anyone care to comment on how you've been using the voice leading material? or the factorial rhythms material? Any personal stories?
I've been tutoring some students through the Berklee ear training program. There's a big hurdle some run into when reading complex rhythms,
and to be able to sight sing them can be challenging. The factorial rhythms are broken down into little molecular pieces that students can hear,
and when displaced by rests to different places in the measure they sound different but can be seen the same way. By using the factorial
rhythms, all the students I've worked with not only become fluent in hearing and writing the most complex rhythmic combinations, but it shows
up in their playing almost immediately. They discover that one way to develop an idea is to find a rhythmic displacement of any idea. It really
helps them to see the rhythmic identity of a phrase as something that can be played with.
The voice leading material is beginning to show up in most unexpected places. Once I begin to hear even a small progression of a few chords,
and anticipate a chord at the end of that grouping, I can plug several bars of voice led chords the way you'd use a chord substitute. But instead
of one "different" chord, there is an entire movement of harmony that just makes sense in the resolution.
I've also been using the chords as single note lines, in different orders of arpeggiation to get some really spectacular linear ideas. The nice thing
is, it sounds like it complicated because there a lot of notes but it's just a string of voice led chords. It sounds like a lot of notes but it makes
perfect harmonic sense.
Using voice led pieces derived from the melodic minor scale, you can plug in a passage where you'd put a lydian dominant substitution. That
sounds outside but it comes home with the half step resolution. Tricky and nice and easy once you get it in your ears.
Anyone else?
David

taurusgtr

04-22-2014, 11:44 PM

I must admit to skipping from page 1 to the last of this thread. However, are the voice leading books going to be republished? I own #1 and
#2. I'd like to purchase #3. Any info would be great.
Thank you

TruthHertz

04-23-2014, 12:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by taurusgtr
I must admit to skipping from page 1 to the last of this thread. However, are the voice leading books going to be republished? I own #1 and #2. I'd like to
purchase #3. Any info would be great.
Thank you

Looking into publishing options right now. Watch for it.
David

taurusgtr

04-23-2014, 12:39 AM

Thank you sir.

dasein

05-02-2014, 01:41 PM

mick, garrison fewell, AND jon damian are all retiring? it's the end of an era. who's left from the old guard... brett willmott and richie hart?
anyways, the work you're doing is exemplary, TruthHertz/David. as much as it pains us to admit, guys like Mick won't be around forever, and
documenting as much of his thoughts, methods, works, and teaching as possible while he's still got the drive and ability to push the instrument
forward is going to be crucial for the next generation of players. I only wish that Charlie Banacos got such a thorough treatment before his
untimely passing.

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I believe you have my email, but if not, I will gladly PM you again to keep in touch and possibly help out (if needed) with any developments on
this front.
05-02-2014, 05:23 PM

Broyale

I just heard about these Goodchord Voice Leading books. Are they gonna be put back in print? Anyone got a copy they want to $ell?
05-03-2014, 12:30 AM

marcwhy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broyale
I just heard about these Goodchord Voice Leading books. Are they gonna be put back in print? Anyone got a copy they want to $ell?

Bro,
This is a very long -- and rich -- thread, with lots of info on the books, upcoming printings, new projects, etc. It would be worth your time to go
back and check it out.
[BTW, an original book sold on eBay recently for a couple hundred bucks, so be prepared]
Enjoy!
05-03-2014, 03:30 AM

Broyale
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcwhy

Bro,
This is a very long -- and rich -- thread, with lots of info on the books, upcoming printings, new projects, etc. It would be worth your time to go back and check it
out.
[BTW, an original book sold on eBay recently for a couple hundred bucks, so be prepared]
Enjoy!

I ain't got time to sift through 11+ pages of all that, I just want the books or info on when the books will be available in print. If anyone got all
three volumes to sell, hit me up.
05-05-2014, 10:35 AM

Gesture

I've started using the voice leading material mainly to learn triads and 7th chords all over the fretboard.
I'm trying to incorporate triads in my single-line soloing more to get a more 'open' sound. For example over a Cmaj chord I could combine F and
G triads or D and C triads for a lydian sound.
And like said before on this thread certain parts of cycles can sound great if you play them over chords using either chords or single notes.
Secondly working with this material hopefully allows me in the future to see where the notes of the triads are on the neck.
Also it's great for my ears. I'm going to try singing along with seperate voicings for that.
I haven't got the books so I have mostly used the info on this thread, some examples I've found online and my creativity to come up with
cycles.
TruthHertz: If you don't mind me asking: Do you actually teach at Berklee and if so what's your full name? Just curious!
ps. It would be great to start a thread where we could discuss the factorial rhythms material. I'm really curious what the contents are about but
I can't find ANYTHING about it online. Is the material something you can easily do yourself like with the almanacs?
Cheers
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mirador

05-06-2014, 05:27 AM

Hi!
If there are any plans of re-publishing Mr.Goodchord's crown jewels, I'm in!
I already have the Advancing Guitarist, The Factorial Rhythm
& Almanacs 1&2 but I would really gladly pay any reasonable price
(in tens of dollars, not hundreds) for Almanac vol. 3, variations on Falling Grace
(love that tune! Been playing it as a jazz waltz) & the new rhythm book!
So if there's any plans for unearthing these count me in as a customer... :-)
regards
M
P.S. Thanks David & others for the wonderful info - appreciate it deeply!

driskel

05-19-2014, 01:13 PM

As a heads up there is a copy of Volume 2 available of Ebay.

mikostep

08-30-2014, 06:21 AM

Hey guys,
I think it's been enough time for holidays, lets get back to our thread. Any updates?

TruthHertz

08-30-2014, 07:32 AM

The three volumes of Almanacs is being reorganized by scale type. That'll mean you'll be able to get them in smaller volumes based on Major,
Melodic, Harmonic minor. It makes a lot of sense since the originals tended to be overwhelming to the vast majority of guitarists. There'll be 7
volumes.
I'm trying to put together a Kickstarter to this end.
I sent a copy of the re-organized Volume 3 material to Ben this summer. Be forewarned!
David
The rhythm book will be out within a month. It's changed the way I organize my soloing...thinking like a drummer.

driskel

08-30-2014, 08:06 AM

I am looking forward to these David. Thank you for all your efforts.
I would definitely contribute to the Kick Starter campaign.

jeromesteele

08-31-2014, 03:11 AM

I can only imagine what Mr. Monder will get up to with the volume 3 material. Also, is the rhythm book you are discussing a reorganized
"Factorial Rhythm" or something new?
Thanks David!

TruthHertz

08-31-2014, 07:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeromesteele
I can only imagine what Mr. Monder will get up to with the volume 3 material. Also, is the rhythm book you are discussing a reorganized "Factorial Rhythm" or
something new?
Thanks David!

All new material, rhythmic phrases exhaustively organized in two measure repeatable loops. This creates a subtly shifting rhythmic pattern that
explores and opens up the ear to different displacements, groupings, patterns and ideas of space.
In a quick summary, Mick realized that rhythm is maybe the most important, if not most overlooked element in soloing organization. Guitarists

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tend to phrase "machine gun style" and the neglect of weight or space i.e. use of thoughtful groupings makes us think differently. When you
phrase by habit or strictly by imitative ear, you can limit what you do, where you can go. For those players, he's written this book Repeat After
Me.
It's a listing of rhythmic groupings to be played, heard, listened to, explored with no melodic content specified. It's a rhythm encyclopedia that
can change the way you hear space, the way you compose, the way you solo.
It's a little like factorial rhythms but he put them in two measure phrases meant to be played, and it's more musical in the presentation and
exploration.
You hear a lot more sophistication in arrangements, in drummers' solos, in instrumentalists who have an active rhythmic concept. So Mick has
written the bible on rhythmic phrasing. Not for everyone. Not until you hit the rhythmic wall of "Why did I play that AGAIN?!!" then he's
provided a book of answers.
Coming out in the next few weeks. It's at the publisher's now.
David

marcwhy

08-31-2014, 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Coming out in the next few weeks. It's at the publisher's now.
David

Where can I order?!?!?!
:nightmare:

Gearhead

09-03-2014, 11:34 AM

That's great new, David!
Looking forward to the rhythm book. Who's going to publish it?

TruthHertz

09-03-2014, 02:09 PM

We're self publishing with Lulu.com. You know for all those other books, the Almanacs, the factorial rhythms, they were all turned down by Hal
Leonard and Berklee Press because they were pronounced "Not interesting for the public". Go figure.
David

Jabberwocky

09-03-2014, 03:32 PM

Please keep us updated as to when we may order them from lulu, David. Please. And thank you.

TruthHertz

09-04-2014, 05:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Please keep us updated as to when we may order them from lulu, David. Please. And thank you.

It'll be available through Amazon, or from Mick somehow. I'll be letting you know.
On another topic though, does anyone include Voice Leading material in their practice routines these days? It seems like a nice time to take a
section and possibly begin a support group here of a few members who'd like to explore and keep some kind of forum journal on impressions of
the material. So we might all benefit from the experience.
I'll tell you one thing, the learning curve on this material is intimidating for some, for a lot of people. We might all benefit from sharing the
experience.
I'll begin here with some personal notes:
The book was volume 1 and it was really exciting to buy, there was such incredible promise in the legendary book; a book that could change
and revolutionize my approach so after immersion in it I'd be able to effortlessly voice lead like Bach in real time chord soloing. Yeah it was like
Christmas to buy it but it was like a Christmas present that, when I tore open the wrapping, opened the box, contained a million pieces, had a
manual 800 pages long and they were all blank pages.
The book slowly crept onto the shelf, and occasionally I'd get a running start, put it on my music stand and run through a few pages. It didn't
help that sometimes I'd be put off by the cryptic notation, the fact that it'd call me on the fact that I didn't know the fingerboard down cold ( oh
yes. This is an absolute requirement, you must know the location of every note on the fingerboard before you begin. These things move ALL
over the place and there's no indication of where or when you change position. It's like anti-TAB) or that some of this material is literally
impossible to play on the guitar.
Fast forward to a one time Summer camp session that was held in Western MA. It was a time when musicians from all over the world came to
create a collective of voice leading adventurers. Every day for two weeks(?) we studied, hung, listened to others play beautiful music, discussed
the books, and everything else...and I realized one thing. It really helps to do this in a group and to hear it. It's easier to take our discoveries
great and small, and share them with another.

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So here we are, maybe some volunteers on breaking open material? Specific cycles we might tear into as a collective? Any takers? Just to plant
the seeds before any releases can find the legal light of day. I might offer some pages in google doc for any pioneers who want to join in. Any
veterans want to suggest a chapter that we can decode and turn into music? Anybody use this over standards? In individual compositions? In
free improv?
I'll throw this out to the community and find out how many in this forum want to take a break from the world of shiny gear worship and jump
into the deep end of the pool...no, the ocean. Any experiences anyone wants to share to begin with?
David

JakeAcci

09-04-2014, 09:03 AM

I haven't been getting that much time on the guitar lately, but when I do I'm often drawn to things that reference the cycles. I've had a fetish
for very large spreads lately, like the double drop two and drop 3, and something about cycle 3 always appeals to me as it just sounds like
continuing to extend the same chord rather than a chord progression.
I occasionally do solo improv shows where I do not play tunes but rather try to make up and structure pieces on the spot, and I definitely wind
up incorporating voicings I have discovered via the books as well as some (but not that
much) cyclical movement from the books.
When I was working with the books, I was very rigorous about getting through all the triad material and I did quite a lot...that time spent has
made me much more adept with spread triads and being able to harmonize melodies on the spot via spread triads, which is a really nice
addition to my playing. It is a little bit more daunting to work to have the same level of fluency with say, the double drop 2 and drop 3 voicings,
but perhaps it's something that will get some attention in the practice room some day.
Also I know feel more comfortable being able to improvise with 3 or 4 part movement, but generally the parts either move parallel or there are
many common tones. I don't see this as a bad thing though it's less "Advanced" then improvising 4 part counterpoint, I think it can be really
nice to have a lot of sustaining voices while one or two voices shift around. Can be a nice effect, and easier to play on the guitar while still
getting nice timbre and sustain.
The last cycle I was messing with was double drop 2 and drop 3 voicing for cycle 3 in C#harmonic minor. Maybe I'll write out or demo what
that sounds like...very nice on the guitar.
Edited to add: I realized I did record that cycle already, when I was in Cape Cod a few weeks ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rd6...8zqlRUGq3y6idg

Stephen_Bridgland

09-05-2014, 04:21 AM

I'm one of the unlucky folks who didn't get the chance to buy the books before they went out of print, so I'm very glad to hear that they are
going to be available again.

I was able to get enough information on the structure of the first two books to write out my own reduced versions of the first two books and
incorporate the ideas into my practice. I have no idea what was contained in the 3rd volume, but I've heard that that volume is probably the
most interesting. Is this going to be reprinted in its entirety?

I have to admit that while I'm very excited to hear that they are being reprinted, I am slightly confused as to why they are going to be
expanded to 7 volumes when surely the more logical thing to do would be to reduce the information to a single volume, without writing out the
different keys. What is the reason for the expansion? The thing that I felt I was missing by not having the books was the words and insight of
Mick Goodrick, not the pages of notes that can be worked out pretty easily once you know the formulas for the voice leading. Will they still have
his original introductions and notes?

As for using the material in practice, recently I've been concentrating on voice leading all 3 note voicings. I know that triads and 3 part 4ths are
covered in the volumes, but I've also been voice leading clusters, 7no3, and 7no5 chords. After voice leading these for a while I find myself
instinctively moving out of "practice mode" and into "explorer mode" and adding a 4th note every now and then...I also find it much easier to
seamlessly work in passing notes into the 3note chords without it sounding clunky.

Anyway, looking forward to the books!

TruthHertz

09-05-2014, 06:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_Bridgland
I have to admit that while I'm very excited to hear that they are being reprinted, I am slightly confused as to why they are going to be expanded to 7 volumes
when surely the more logical thing to do would be to reduce the information to a single volume, without writing out the different keys. What is the reason for the
expansion?

12/25/2014 10:47 AM

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It's not an expansion into keys Stephen, it's taking the enormous amount of information and organizing it into more manageable parts. Though
originally presented as an exhaustive listing of voice led cycles in the key of C, expansion to other keys left to the user, that still holds, but
volume one was made up of diatonic cycles, melodic minor cycles and harmonic minor based cycles. They were colour coded and made a book
larger than a New York City phone book. They were also seen to be prohibitively expensive at the time. Mick broke them down into the scale
families so you could work on melodic minor sounds exclusively, decide that harmonic minor sounds and fingerings were not useful right now
and leave them for another day.
So volume 1 became 3 volumes, diatonic, MM based, HM based.
Volume 2 became 3 volumes the same...
Volume 3 has become 2, according to a logical breakdown of that challenging material.
So there'll be 8 actually. Mick's got some new notes for each and I'm thinking of compiling supplementary helpful work material, some with the
help of people here on this thread.
It was thought that students would find focused individual volumes more conducive to working with on a day to day level. It was thought that
some could take the ideas of one volume and, getting to really know it, make the expansion to the others on their own. It was thought that
putting an already concentrated book, smaller in size, on your music stand and working on it for 6 months would be vastly preferable to having
one massive doorstop on your bookshelf forever.
The goal here was always to allow the curious user the means by which they'd assimilate and get "off book" as effectively as possible. If you
wanted to get to know the beauty of Shakespeare's sonnets, you wouldn't need to buy and carry around the collected unabridged works of
Shakespeare including all the historical plays with Marlowe's writings for comparison. It's a practical thing. And it makes the ticket into this world
a lot cheaper.
I hope this clears up the question a little.
David

Gearhead

09-05-2014, 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
It's not an expansion into keys Stephen, it's taking the enormous amount of information and organizing it into more manageable parts. Though originally
presented as an exhaustive listing of voice led cycles in the key of C, expansion to other keys left to the user, that still holds, but volume one was made up of
diatonic cycles, melodic minor cycles and harmonic minor based cycles. They were colour coded and made a book larger than a New York City phone book. They
were also seen to be prohibitively expensive at the time. Mick broke them down into the scale families so you could work on melodic minor sounds exclusively,
decide that harmonic minor sounds and fingerings were not useful right now and leave them for another day.
So volume 1 became 3 volumes, diatonic, MM based, HM based.
Volume 2 became 3 volumes the same...
Volume 3 has become 2, according to a logical breakdown of that challenging material.
So there'll be 8 actually. Mick's got some new notes for each and I'm thinking of compiling supplementary helpful work material, some with the help of people
here on this thread.
It was thought that students would find focused individual volumes more conducive to working with on a day to day level. It was thought that some could take the
ideas of one volume and, getting to really know it, make the expansion to the others on their own. It was thought that putting an already concentrated book,
smaller in size, on your music stand and working on it for 6 months would be vastly preferable to having one massive doorstop on your bookshelf forever.
The goal here was always to allow the curious user the means by which they'd assimilate and get "off book" as effectively as possible. If you wanted to get to
know the beauty of Shakespeare's sonnets, you wouldn't need to buy and carry around the collected unabridged works of Shakespeare including all the historical
plays with Marlowe's writings for comparison. It's a practical thing. And it makes the ticket into this world a lot cheaper.
I hope this clears up the question a little.
David

Owning all three of the original volumes, I totally dig the idea of breaking up all the information. Especially Vol. 1 has been very intimidating with
the wealth of information it has. I found it easier to work with Vol. 3.
but the tutorials in this thread have been very helpful in digging into Vol. 1 as well.
nevertheless I'm in for a pruchase of the whole monty.

cheers,
uli

e_del
After being lost in the voicing jungle, I went back to basics, and re started from triads, using the cycle idea (and my
spreadsheet) to compile this document...
Hope someone finds it useful.

bako

09-06-2014, 09:06 AM
1 Attachment(s)

09-06-2014, 06:03 PM

I am curious how other Goodchord practitioners deal with:

1. The multiple fingering options available for spread 3 note chords
Ex. C G E
C G X E ----- E C X G ----- G E X C
C X G E ----- E X C G ----- G X E C

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C X G X E ----- E X C X G ----- G X E X C
C G E ----- E C G ----- G E C
2. Chords with too many small intervals or chords with impossible stretches.

driskel

09-07-2014, 03:23 PM

David, I use this material pretty much everyday in my practice routine. I am what I consider a beginner to jazz and thoughtful study. I am not
in any particular rush for anything, so this type of work is completely enjoyable and sounds like music to me. The study of cycles over the last
year, has really increased my ear as well as the ability to actually pick out cycle progressions in songs and relate songs to cycles.
I basically cycle a key a week for study via the cycle of 4ths. I pick a chord cycle and the inverse cycle to work on during the day (for example
cycle 3/6 up and then down). I work through different voicings (triads close/spread), drop 2, 3 etc. I use the cycle work as a templates to
continue my learning and solidifying of voicings/inversions and the neck in general. As I work though a cycle, I recite the note names, and the
note function as it relates to the chord (1, b3, etc) and to the key center.
I also practice arpeggios via cycles in multiple scale fingerings as well.
Some take aways for me
1) Chords are not blocks, they are individual voices that can move through a progression. I did not see it that way before.
2) The systematic study of inversions has certainly led to more effectiveness in my other musical endeavors that include two guitar players and
playing in a group with the 2 female vocalists, cello, piano, bass and drums. This work has really contributed in my ability to find a space to exist
in these contexts without getting in the way of others, the melody or the main focus of the song.
3) The study of inversions in a musical context, highlight and show nuance that I was not getting while working through inversions without a
musical context.
4) There is so much more depth to the study of cycles than what is on paper, that I believe I will continue with these studies as a spring board
to many things, whether it be new voicings, arpeggios, scale or I don't know what yet :)
Thank you for this wonderful thread and all the amazing contributions of the posters. I look forward to the new publications and the
continuation of this thread.

driskel

09-07-2014, 03:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bako
I am curious how other Goodchord practitioners deal with:

1. The multiple fingering options available for spread 3 note chords
Ex. C G E
C G X E ----- E C X G ----- G E X C
C X G E ----- E X C G ----- G X E C
C X G X E ----- E X C X G ----- G X E X C
C G E ----- E C G ----- G E C
2. Chords with too many small intervals or chords with impossible stretches.

1) I actually try to work though the different options and learn them all, easier said then done. For me, learning them all will open up the
instrument to me. That being said, I am certainly not there yet. I am using the cycles as systematic way to learn what my deficiencies are and
how to rectify that.
2) Chords with an impossible stretch/small intervals, I try to break them up into 2 movements, or drop a voice that may not be necessary or
apply an arpeggio like approach.

TruthHertz

09-07-2014, 04:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by driskel
...or apply an arpeggio like approach.

I've heard some horn players using this stuff in arpeggio manner and it's so musical and so beautifully unexpected that I say "What are you
doing? How do you think of those things so fast?!! " and there it is-voice led cycles.
David

JakeAcci

09-07-2014, 04:49 PM

Do you guys ever apply your left hand thumb under the fretboard for any voicings that are otherwise too difficult? I know that is a somewhat

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common technique in some styles of guitar playing (flamenco, maybe?) but not something I've dug into much. Here is a nice clip: Instagram

bako

09-07-2014, 07:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Do you guys ever apply your left hand thumb under the fretboard for any voicings that are otherwise too difficult?

On cello (my other instrument), using the thumb to finger notes is a common occurrence.
Among other benefits, it does facilitate some stretches that are otherwise not possible.
On guitar, the angle is not as friendly for thumb use, less gravity and more pressure.
I break it out when simultaneous sound is needed and all else is failing.
It does have some potential that could be worth exploring.

bako

09-10-2014, 07:14 AM

Early morning thought:
Take a cycle and change from one chord to the next, one note at a time.
Ex. Cycle 2 F melodic minor (drop 2)
FmMa7 > Gm7 > Abma7+ > Bb7 ......ect

F C E Ab
FCEG
FCDG
F Bb D G
F Bb C G
F Ab C G
E Ab C G
E Ab C F
E Ab Bb F
D Ab Bb F
etc.
In this example, I changed single notes starting with the highest going to the lowest.
Other scenarios are of course possible.
Here is starting with the lowest going highest.
F C E Ab
F Bb E Ab
F Bb D Ab
F Bb D G
E Bb C G
E Ab D G
E Ab C G
D Ab C G
D Ab Bb G

12/25/2014 10:47 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

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http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

D Ab Bb F
etc.
The basic idea is looking at some possible transitional movements as one chord changes into the next.

e_del

09-10-2014, 07:47 AM

nice thoughts you have! :)
Through the cycles the notes move following a regular repeating pattern of diatonic steps, that translate in 1 or 2 or more semitone jumps.
Basically your method seems to break these jumps in a serie of chromatic moves of one voice at a time, until the next cycle chord is reached...
It's an interesting perspective, and I'll try to dig a bit into it.
At first thought I'd say that some of these new "fill-in" chords will be some kind of "passing chords", as some dissonance will appear at some
time. good for giving an idea of motion, but not to rest on it for too long...

driskel

09-10-2014, 09:29 AM

I have been slowly working through the approach that you mentioned for the last few months.
This feels to me like combining the Almanacs with George Van Eps which is a wonderful approach.

bako

09-10-2014, 11:20 AM

driskel,
I bought a half year ago the first of the Van Eps massive books.
Yeah, he does cover chord movements in some detail.
I always try to be aware of possible diatonic and chromatic movements between here and the next destination.
Brett Willmott has a section in his book on Theory and Voicings that take a structure and looks at all the permutations
of individual voices moving chromatically in each direction. This kind of sandbox play can at times lead to discovering interesting passing chords
that sound good but are not so easy to define.
The above is a diatonic variation, finding pathways between here and there.
Cycle 2 and 7 have 3 differential notes. Cycle 4 and 5 have 2. Cycle 3 and 6 have just 1.

driskel

09-11-2014, 08:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bako
driskel,
I bought a half year ago the first of the Van Eps massive books.
Yeah, he does cover chord movements in some detail.
I always try to be aware of possible diatonic and chromatic movements between here and the next destination.
Brett Willmott has a section in his book on Theory and Voicings that take a structure and looks at all the permutations
of individual voices moving chromatically in each direction. This kind of sandbox play can at times lead to discovering interesting passing chords that sound good
but are not so easy to define.
The above is a diatonic variation, finding pathways between here and there.
Cycle 2 and 7 have 3 differential notes. Cycle 4 and 5 have 2. Cycle 3 and 6 have just 1.

Thank you for the tips and the suggestions. One of the things that I try to be aware of, and try to solidify in terms of understanding with the
cycles, is where is movement and where is there not. I have noticed similar observations in terms of interesting passing chords, which definition
can be a bit ambiguous.
I have both of Brett Wilmott's books. I unfortunately have not had the chance to work successfully with them yet. I am working through some
books that get my rudimentary skills up a few notches (reading, music theory/harmony). It is always one step forward, two steps back, then
three to the left on anything new that I try to learn :) But boy is it a fun ride :)
Thank you for the comments.

driskel

09-11-2014, 08:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by driskel
One of the things that I try to be aware of, and try to solidify in terms of understanding with the cycles, is where is movement and where is there not. I have

12/25/2014 10:47 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

8 of 10

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

noticed similar observations in terms of interesting passing chords, which definition can be a bit ambiguous.

This enforces my change in thoughts around chords. They are not blocks, they are individual voices, that need at times dissonance or resolution.
Not just chord resolution, but individual voice resolutions.

TruthHertz

09-11-2014, 09:17 AM

I'd noticed that lately Mick'd been playing a lot more diad voicings in his soloing. Double stops connected by notes. I listened to these and
thought "are they chords? are they lines?" the distinction between the two had been slowly becoming indistinguishable as anyone who's heard
Mick's comping will know.
And he says casually to me "I'm almost done with another book. It's on double stops" and there's a big pile of sheets, two note combinations,
not chords, not single lines but as driskel points out, new ways of looking at chordal harmony as a moving flow from one resolution to another.
Mick plays me Stella, done in connected double stop diads, and it's like a Bach two part invention on bebop changes.
I hear two note combinations used frequently by Bill Frisell. It's got a minimalist vibe but the effect of "How does he pick just those perfect two
notes to describe that harmony in the great melody line?" Well that's what the new project is about.
Some ideas to consider as the book is coming together. A little preview of things to come...
Hey e_del, you put together those beautiful voice led sheets? Would you be able to work with us to put basically handwritten notes into a
format somewhat similar to the Almanacs, with the notes and directional arrows? You can PM me if you're interested.
David

Liarspoker

09-11-2014, 01:37 PM

Just to let you know that I am interested in purchasing some books.
Currently I'm knee deep into learning a wide range of new material but I will use them some time. :rolleyes:

e_del

09-11-2014, 03:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
You can PM me if you're interested.
David

done :)

dasein

09-11-2014, 07:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I'd noticed that lately Mick'd been playing a lot more diad voicings in his soloing. Double stops connected by notes. I listened to these and thought "are they
chords? are they lines?" the distinction between the two had been slowly becoming indistinguishable as anyone who's heard Mick's comping will know.
And he says casually to me "I'm almost done with another book. It's on double stops" and there's a big pile of sheets, two note combinations, not chords, not
single lines but as driskel points out, new ways of looking at chordal harmony as a moving flow from one resolution to another. Mick plays me Stella, done in
connected double stop diads, and it's like a Bach two part invention on bebop changes.
I hear two note combinations used frequently by Bill Frisell. It's got a minimalist vibe but the effect of "How does he pick just those perfect two notes to describe
that harmony in the great melody line?" Well that's what the new project is about.
Some ideas to consider as the book is coming together. A little preview of things to come...
Hey e_del, you put together those beautiful voice led sheets? Would you be able to work with us to put basically handwritten notes into a format somewhat
similar to the Almanacs, with the notes and directional arrows? You can PM me if you're interested.
David

Dave, you're killing me. what Mick is doing (with your invaluable assistance putting it together) is practically a public service. my only regret is
that it probably means i'm going to be spending a whole lot more money on books.
in the vein of this thread, do you guys need help putting this material together? formatting, editing, proof-reading, things like that? if so, PM me.
i'd be happy to offer my services.

Liarspoker

09-14-2014, 03:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I'd noticed that lately Mick'd been playing a lot more diad voicings in his soloing. Double stops connected by notes. I listened to these and thought "are they
chords? are they lines?" the distinction between the two had been slowly becoming indistinguishable as anyone who's heard Mick's comping will know.
And he says casually to me "I'm almost done with another book. It's on double stops" and there's a big pile of sheets, two note combinations, not chords, not
single lines but as driskel points out, new ways of looking at chordal harmony as a moving flow from one resolution to another. Mick plays me Stella, done in
connected double stop diads, and it's like a Bach two part invention on bebop changes.
I hear two note combinations used frequently by Bill Frisell. It's got a minimalist vibe but the effect of "How does he pick just those perfect two notes to describe
that harmony in the great melody line?" Well that's what the new project is about.
Some ideas to consider as the book is coming together. A little preview of things to come...
Hey e_del, you put together those beautiful voice led sheets? Would you be able to work with us to put basically handwritten notes into a format somewhat

12/25/2014 10:47 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

9 of 10

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

similar to the Almanacs, with the notes and directional arrows? You can PM me if you're interested.
David

I'd love to hear Mick play Stella like this. If there is any chance of capturing a quick take, even via phone camera, I'm sure that would be
appreciated by all on this thread.
Since I am currently studying diads Mick's diad book is definitely on my list.

driskel

09-14-2014, 11:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
And he says casually to me "I'm almost done with another book. It's on double stops" and there's a big pile of sheets, two note combinations, not chords, not
single lines but as driskel points out, new ways of looking at chordal harmony as a moving flow from one resolution to another. Mick plays me Stella, done in
connected double stop diads, and it's like a Bach two part invention on bebop changes.

David, is the double stops book part of the almanac(s)/voice leading rewrite, as an addition, or is it a future book?
As a request and a consumer, I would love these in hard print and kindle. I tend to purchase both when available. If not available, I spend a
day scanning a book and uploading as a PDF for my kindle reader. So I have my resources available where ever I am. Note, I do not share
these with anyone.
Thank you.
Michael

TruthHertz

09-14-2014, 09:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by driskel
David, is the double stops book part of the almanac(s)/voice leading rewrite, as an addition, or is it a future book?

Hi Michael They're completely new material, he's putting it together right now. He's entered a very prolific period, writing down all sorts of new
ways of looking at things. Still in the compiling phase, not even a clever title yet.
By the way he played a series of mind blowing solo, duos and trio things with guitarist Dave Tronzo today. I'm hoping this is the start of
something in the future.
David

driskel

09-15-2014, 09:35 AM

Thanks for the update David.

dasein

10-01-2014, 11:26 AM

hey David,
sent you a PM and attempted to send you an email. let me know if you still need help, offer is still very much on the table.

benmca

11-04-2014, 03:38 PM

Hi All,
New member Ben here. What an enriching read! 12 pages of discussion with so much meat. Thanks to everyone who's posted over the past
two years. I'm a newcomer to the forum, finding it while searching for a support group around Mick's work in Advancing Guitarist. So much to
discuss! A few questions and observations, after plowing through that whole thread and trying to digest it all:
- Assuming this thread is still active, I assume the current topic is to air how you're working with the cycles from the Almanac books primarily.
Are there other discussions related to MG book topics people would suggest? I've been reading for 3 hours and am reading to go play. :)
- David - I eagerly await your self-published venture, but hope it's ok to PM you in the meantime.
- As a newcomer steeped in theory already, I found the Keyboard magazine articles a fine intro, and I don't think they were mentioned again
since p1 of this thread.
http://classes.berklee.edu/gr/mgc_1.pdf
http://classes.berklee.edu/gr/mgc_2.pdf
- One reason posts here might be infrequent is that everyone is rightly taking things slowly. :)

12/25/2014 10:47 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

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http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

If it's still an active thread, I'll post thoughts/observations as I explore the material from this thread. One inspired day I wrote up some thoughts
after spending some weeks on p. 39 of Advancing Guitarist. Mick Goodrick Triads 1 | Ben McAllister

Thanks again,
Ben
listenfaster.com
11-04-2014, 04:04 PM

TruthHertz

Oh yeah, we're all active. As a matter of fact, tonight I'm starting a duos weekly workshop here in Boston for Tuesdays and I hope to do
something on each day of the week regularly, one night may be devoted to discussing, sharing and working through things like conceiving,
applying and learning the Goodchord and other related material. That stuff is not always easy to work through alone, but shared with others, a
"hey listen to this. I found this cycle and I used it on All The Things here..." and likewise, we can really reveal the music potential of this stuff.
And of course we'll post here too.
David
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Playdough

11-16-2014, 03:39 AM

Wow, been a lurker on this forum for a bit but reading this thread (I'll admit I skimmed at times) made me sign up. These books are exactly
what I'm after to add to my practice routine. Look forward to hearing when they're available.

driskel

11-16-2014, 11:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playdough
Wow, been a lurker on this forum for a bit but reading this thread (I'll admit I skimmed at times) made me sign up. These books are exactly what I'm after to add
to my practice routine. Look forward to hearing when they're available.

Welcome,
These concepts are a wonderful additional to a practice routine. My entire thought process re: harmony has changed by using concepts
presented in these books. I no longer view chords as chords, I view them as individual voices.
One thing that I found helpful, is to write out cycle(s) and do the legwork yourself. I do this every week for a new key.

Boston Joe

11-22-2014, 12:34 PM

I think I've got the first volume around here somewhere (unless I lost it when I moved last Spring). I found it at Berkleebooks years ago, and
worked with it a little bit. At the time, it was helpful in teaching me what to look for when moving from one chord to another (common tones,
half and whole step movements, etc.)

TruthHertz

11-22-2014, 02:42 PM

I've been using the cycles in a way I hadn't thought of before. That is, in a solo context. In chord soloing, it's always been an emphasis on
playing everything TOGETHER, in block chord arrangements at its most extreme. I've found that by separating the melody and chord functions,
I could play the melody with the minimum of chord voicing underneath, and then play chord progressions separately. I know Jim Hall did this to
great effect.
Now I'm finding that taking a string of voice led cycle chords, with the diatonic chord I want to use at the end of that grouping, I can use the
cycles as movement of voices into a specific chord. Pretty nifty.
Still exploring it, but I thought I'd share it as it was coming into my toolbox. The more I play the melody separately, rather than simultaneously
with chords, the more "outside" I can start without creating a feeling of conflict. This is changing the way I play chord soloing.
Anyone else worked in this way?
David

Broyale

12-24-2014, 09:50 PM

Any more info on when these books will be back in print?
What is the hold up, my money is ready.

e_del

12-25-2014, 12:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I
Still exploring it, but I thought I'd share it as it was coming into my toolbox. The more I play the melody separately, rather than simultaneously with chords, the
more "outside" I can start without creating a feeling of conflict. This is changing the way I play chord soloing.
Anyone else worked in this way?
David

You mean you think in terms of an independent main top melody played together with a more sparse supporting triad progression (in case of 4
notes chord harmonisation)? using the cycles to "optimize" the voice movements to fit your needs?
Something like having e.g. a singer part, with a "triadic pianist" comping underneath... ?

12/25/2014 10:48 AM

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

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